Posted on 09/30/2002 9:19:01 AM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
VENTURA, Calif. -- Pollster George Barna, known these days as the bearer of bad tidings about the state of Christianity in America, arrived in his office a few minutes late for a 10 a.m. appointment.
His hair was ruffled; his eyes puffy. Shoulders slouched. Being the George Gallup of the conservative evangelical world is a heavy burden for Barna, who often works into the early morning, deciphering numbers generated by his surveys to find church trends.
The 48-year-old author of 30 books, who describes himself as a raging introvert, is a popular national speaker. And he produces enough in-your-face statistics and blunt talk to irritate pastors, cost him business and earn a reputation for having, as one magazine put it, "the gift of discouragement."
His data undercut some of the core beliefs that should, by definition, set evangelicals apart from their more liberal brethren. Findings of his polls show, for example, that:
• The divorce rate is no different for born-again Christians than for those who do not consider themselves religious.
• Only a minority of born-again adults (44 percent) and a tiny proportion of born-again teenagers (9 percent) are certain that absolute moral truth exists.
• Most Christians' votes are influenced more by economic self-interest than by spiritual and moral values.
• Desiring to have a close, personal relationship with God ranks sixth among the 21 life goals tested among born-agains, trailing such desires as "living a comfortable lifestyle."
'Are people's lives being transformed" by Christianity? Barna has asked. "We can't find evidence of a transformation."
Even Barna's toughest critics concede that Barna Research Group's polls carry considerable weight because of his first-rate surveying techniques and his 17-year-long record of tracking church and cultural trends.
His work has been used by major companies (Ford Motor Co. and Walt Disney, for example) and religious organizations such as the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association and World Vision.
"He is the accepted authority on church trends," said Bob Cavin, director of the Texas Baptist Leadership Center. "He gives pastors insight, not only into the effectiveness of the church, but with trends in society that help the pastors with their strategic planning."
Because of his influence, many are watching with interest as Barna branches out from his usual business. He has been preoccupied with quantifying contemporary Christian beliefs, attitudes and practices; comparing them with biblical truths; and delivering the results to pastors, Christian leaders and laity. He said that he once hoped his analyses would be used as building blocks for more relevant churches.
But he decided this year to take a more active role by helping to identify and develop new and better church leaders who will boldly go where their predecessors haven't gone before: to radically revamp the church. He said he believes the process will take decades -- generations -- to complete.
"One of our challenges is to revisit the structures and means through which people experience Christ," Barna said. "People have been talking about developing the 'new church' for the past several decades, but nothing new has been forthcoming."
According to Barna, pastors are great teachers, but not necessarily adept at leadership. To back up his claim, he cited one of his own polls: It showed that only 12 percent of senior pastors say they have the spiritual gift of leadership and 8 percent say they have the gift of evangelism. In contrast, two-thirds say they have the gift of teaching or preaching.
"We, not God, have created a system that doesn't work and that we're reluctant to change."
Barna also is in the early stages of establishing a genuine and appealing Christian presence in secular entities: film, music, media and politics. He has identified these as the institutions that hold the most influence over Americans.
What's needed are "skilled professionals who love Christ and model his ways through their thoughts, words and behavior in enviable and biblically consistent ways," he said.
For Barna, the need for better leadership and better Christian role models in the secular world was underscored by a poll he released this month.
9/11 opportunity lost
The survey showed that the Sept. 11 attacks had virtually no lasting effects on America's faith, despite a 20 percent rise in church attendance during the first few weeks afterward.
"We missed a huge opportunity," he said, adding that, because of their own shallow faith, church regulars needed so much reassurance themselves that they couldn't minister to newcomers.
This kind of comment bothers evangelical Christians.
Mike Regele, author of "The Death of the Church," is one of many who believe the Barna Research Group's statistical work is excellent, but the conclusions drawn by the company's founder are too harsh.
The hypocrisy of Christians, Regele said, "has been a part of the church, probably since the day of Pentecost" and doesn't indicate its collapse.
"It sounds like he's very, very angry at the church," said Regele, a church critic himself who is ultimately an optimist. "There are reasons to be disappointed, but scripture never said we'd be perfect. We shouldn't view the whole institution as a failure."
With each new Barna poll or book, the attacks begin again: He's too negative; he has it in for pastors; he's arrogant.
The criticism "would affect any human being," said Barna, a husband and father of two. "We all want to be loved and accepted by others, but we also have a higher calling to which we each must be true."
Barna said he has learned painfully that giving advice on how to revitalize churches in America is a hugely complex proposition that doesn't fit well into sound bites. He has learned to be more guarded.
Although his statistics often show self-described Christians living lives no different from those of atheists, Barna's faith never has wavered.
"The issue isn't whether Jesus or Christianity is real," he said. "The issue is, are Americans willing to put Christ first in their lives?
If God did not chose me I could pray 100 sinners prayer...go to communion every day...I could give all I own to the poor..and I would still be lost.
And you know this isn't the case because? (That is, that you aren't fooling yourself)
(but I would not WANT to cj..no man seeks after God..read Romans).
So the "proof" of being saved is the fact that you seek after God?
What about the person above who goes to Church and says the sinners prayer, etc. These are evidence of seeking after God, no? Then they must all be saved.
Angelo has been erneastly seeking after God for many years. So he must be saved, right?
It's no wonder you guys have to mock the experiences of other cultures. Because their attempts to seek after God, even though they have not received Revelation, is evidence that they are all saved. Hooray!
SD
A very candid confession. And it has been ratified by many other Calvinists here. Interesting.
It is really so much easier to live with yourself when you are assured that whatever you do, it is what God preordained. The fear of failure, the fear of any consequence of your choices is alleviated. It is a quite comforting theology, and it is no wonder you win so many over to it.
SD
*grin*
Again right on target. But also right into the blind spot of the Calvinists. Of most "Bible only" Christians, in fact.
When the written Word of God is held as the only valid means of God interfacing with us, it is only natural (get it?) that the tale God tells in Creation is not understood. Cultures who do not have direct revelation like we have, can only see by the lights they were given.
And yes, they do have some light!
SD
So what does the word of God say about the "light" they have?
Jhn 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Jhn 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Jhn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
But that is not true on its face. In my example, the man who steals is guilty of theft, not adultery. He has not kept the law against stealing, but he has kept the law against adultery. Would it be just to punish him for violating all of the Law if he only violated one of them?
I'm assuming that you do believe that He is a Being of infinite worth. Therefore, the crime against Him is one of infinite magnitude. Thus, it is a sin deserving an infinite punishment. Simple logic.
Simply illogical. We are finite, and thus are incapable of infinite action. The magnitude of the crime is based upon what we do, not to whom we do it. Murder is murder. It is not a more serious crime to murder a wealthy and powerful person than it is to murder a drug-addicted prostitute. The identity of the victim is irrelevent to the magnitude of the crime.
God is just. It would be unjust to punish infinitely for finite sin. Would you punish your child for all eternity for stealing a $10 bill out of your wallet? Would the punishment be proportional to the crime? Would it be just?
Gee..... Thanks!!!
You're welcome. Although this phraseology may sound condescending, it is worth pointing out that it is more than what many Christians will concede to Judaism. To them, we are all going to burn in hell for eternity.
NIV Matthew 21:23-27
23. Jesus entered the temple courts, and, while he was teaching, the chief priests and the elders of the people came to him. "By what authority are you doing these things?" they asked. "And who gave you this authority?"
24. Jesus replied, "I will also ask you one question. If you answer me, I will tell you by what authority I am doing these things.
25. John's baptism--where did it come from? Was it from heaven, or from men?" They discussed it among themselves and said, "If we say, `From heaven,' he will ask, `Then why didn't you believe him?'
26. But if we say, `From men'--we are afraid of the people, for they all hold that John was a prophet."
27. So they answered Jesus, "We don't know." Then he said, "Neither will I tell you by what authority I am doing these things.
The infinity of the crime is not that it is against an infinite being, but rather that our actions continue on indefinitely. Yes, a muerder is a murder, to civil society.
But consider a greater viewpoint. Perhaps the murder prevented the person being killed from some great acheivement. Or the dead's would-be progeny may have acheived something that is now lost to us. Think of the idea of parallel universes. Every choice takes us on a path that diverges from another "possible future."
Once you've put the milk on your coffee, there's no way of getting the milk back out. Things have changed in an irreversible way. A different reality is now in existence.
SD
I could have SWORN it was
If I may, the point angelo is making is that the lineage from David passes down through Joseph. But that Joseph is not, biologically, Jesus' father.
SD
This is contradicted by scripture. The Torah indicates particular punishments for particular violations of the Law.
But, then again, it could just a "religious" protocol that I'm going through, and it shows no remorse whatever. It just shows that I can go through the motions.
If there was no repentance, then there was no atonement.
[sound of body of CubicleGuy hitting the floor as he faints dead away]
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