Pollster says he can't find Christianity transforming lives

Los Angeles Times | Published Sep 28, 2002 | William Lobdell

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

VENTURA, Calif. -- Pollster George Barna, known these days as the bearer of bad tidings about the state of Christianity in America, arrived in his office a few minutes late for a 10 a.m. appointment.

His hair was ruffled; his eyes puffy. Shoulders slouched. Being the George Gallup of the conservative evangelical world is a heavy burden for Barna, who often works into the early morning, deciphering numbers generated by his surveys to find church trends.

The 48-year-old author of 30 books, who describes himself as a raging introvert, is a popular national speaker. And he produces enough in-your-face statistics and blunt talk to irritate pastors, cost him business and earn a reputation for having, as one magazine put it, "the gift of discouragement."

His data undercut some of the core beliefs that should, by definition, set evangelicals apart from their more liberal brethren. Findings of his polls show, for example, that:

• The divorce rate is no different for born-again Christians than for those who do not consider themselves religious.

• Only a minority of born-again adults (44 percent) and a tiny proportion of born-again teenagers (9 percent) are certain that absolute moral truth exists.

• Most Christians' votes are influenced more by economic self-interest than by spiritual and moral values.

• Desiring to have a close, personal relationship with God ranks sixth among the 21 life goals tested among born-agains, trailing such desires as "living a comfortable lifestyle."

'Are people's lives being transformed" by Christianity? Barna has asked. "We can't find evidence of a transformation."

Even Barna's toughest critics concede that Barna Research Group's polls carry considerable weight because of his first-rate surveying techniques and his 17-year-long record of tracking church and cultural trends.

His work has been used by major companies (Ford Motor Co. and Walt Disney, for example) and religious organizations such as the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association and World Vision.

"He is the accepted authority on church trends," said Bob Cavin, director of the Texas Baptist Leadership Center. "He gives pastors insight, not only into the effectiveness of the church, but with trends in society that help the pastors with their strategic planning."

Because of his influence, many are watching with interest as Barna branches out from his usual business. He has been preoccupied with quantifying contemporary Christian beliefs, attitudes and practices; comparing them with biblical truths; and delivering the results to pastors, Christian leaders and laity. He said that he once hoped his analyses would be used as building blocks for more relevant churches.

But he decided this year to take a more active role by helping to identify and develop new and better church leaders who will boldly go where their predecessors haven't gone before: to radically revamp the church. He said he believes the process will take decades -- generations -- to complete.

"One of our challenges is to revisit the structures and means through which people experience Christ," Barna said. "People have been talking about developing the 'new church' for the past several decades, but nothing new has been forthcoming."

According to Barna, pastors are great teachers, but not necessarily adept at leadership. To back up his claim, he cited one of his own polls: It showed that only 12 percent of senior pastors say they have the spiritual gift of leadership and 8 percent say they have the gift of evangelism. In contrast, two-thirds say they have the gift of teaching or preaching.

"We, not God, have created a system that doesn't work and that we're reluctant to change."

Barna also is in the early stages of establishing a genuine and appealing Christian presence in secular entities: film, music, media and politics. He has identified these as the institutions that hold the most influence over Americans.

What's needed are "skilled professionals who love Christ and model his ways through their thoughts, words and behavior in enviable and biblically consistent ways," he said.

For Barna, the need for better leadership and better Christian role models in the secular world was underscored by a poll he released this month.

9/11 opportunity lost

The survey showed that the Sept. 11 attacks had virtually no lasting effects on America's faith, despite a 20 percent rise in church attendance during the first few weeks afterward.

"We missed a huge opportunity," he said, adding that, because of their own shallow faith, church regulars needed so much reassurance themselves that they couldn't minister to newcomers.

This kind of comment bothers evangelical Christians.

Mike Regele, author of "The Death of the Church," is one of many who believe the Barna Research Group's statistical work is excellent, but the conclusions drawn by the company's founder are too harsh.

The hypocrisy of Christians, Regele said, "has been a part of the church, probably since the day of Pentecost" and doesn't indicate its collapse.

"It sounds like he's very, very angry at the church," said Regele, a church critic himself who is ultimately an optimist. "There are reasons to be disappointed, but scripture never said we'd be perfect. We shouldn't view the whole institution as a failure."

With each new Barna poll or book, the attacks begin again: He's too negative; he has it in for pastors; he's arrogant.

The criticism "would affect any human being," said Barna, a husband and father of two. "We all want to be loved and accepted by others, but we also have a higher calling to which we each must be true."

Barna said he has learned painfully that giving advice on how to revitalize churches in America is a hugely complex proposition that doesn't fit well into sound bites. He has learned to be more guarded.

Although his statistics often show self-described Christians living lives no different from those of atheists, Barna's faith never has wavered.

"The issue isn't whether Jesus or Christianity is real," he said. "The issue is, are Americans willing to put Christ first in their lives?

[CCWoody]

What if you BELIEVE you are saved, but you aren't in "The Book" because God didn't "choose" you? Are you saved or not?

It would still be my duty as the the Lord's created dirt to glorify Him. But, hey, merely having a taste for His glory is pretty good evidence that my name is in the Book of Life.

The Lord has created all things for Himself, even the wicked for the day of Doom!

[drstevej]

Don't faint too fast, ask Elsie whether he believes Mormonism presents a false gospel.

[CubicleGuy]

Your emphasis on "might" was quite misplaced. At the very least, you could have checked another translation, and you would have found the sense in which "that you might be" was used. The NASB renders that clause "that we would be a kind of first fruits." Similarly for the KJV, Darby, and RSV.

It's good to see that it's not only we Mormons who "believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly". ;-)

[drstevej]

Actually you believe the Bible is the Word of God unless Joesph Smith sees fit to exercise prophetic liscense and cut part out, change words or ignore portions that don't fit his revisionistic theology.

Want to visit the Joseph Smith Translation debate some more??? How about a cordial discussion format interchange on whether the Joseph Smith translation is in any legitimate sense a translation?

Just you and me and the JST!

[malakhi]

Let me know if within a few years, this religion spreads across the entire globe. Within a few years that the Christ of the LORD was murdered in Jerusalem, the Way has spread across the known world.

Chabad Lubavitch (and the messianics within their movement) has a wider worldwide distribution now than Christianity did eight years after the death of Jesus.

I asked you this before and you didn't answer: What are these prophecies about the Messiah and where are they in the Hebrew scriptures? I'm curious to know what you believe they teach.

My apologies; I missed the question. There are four primary messianic prophecies in the Hebrew scriptures, all of which must be fulfilled within his lifetime. If a messiah candidate dies before fulfilling all of them, he ain't the messiah. (There is no provision in prophecy for a "second coming" to finish up what wasn't done the first time around). There are multiple scriptural sources for some of the prophecies, but I will only indicate a representative passage here. The four main prophecies are:

1. World Peace

He shall judge between the nations,
and shall decide for many peoples;
and they shall beat their swords into plowshares,
and their spears into pruning hooks;
nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
neither shall they learn war any more. (Isaiah 2:4)

2. Building of the Third Temple

Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them--it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; and I will establish them, and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in the midst of them for ever.
My dwelling-place also shall be over them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
And the nations shall know that I am the LORD that sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for ever.' (Ezekiel 37:26-28)

3. Ingathering of Israel

Fear not, for I am with you;
I will bring your offspring from the east,
and from the west I will gather you;
I will say to the north, Give up,
and to the south, Do not withhold;
bring my sons from afar
and my daughters from the end of the earth (Isaiah 43:5-6)

4. Universal Knowledge of God

for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea. (Isaiah 11:9)

Trick question: at what point did Jesus become God?

He was begotten from eternity.

It seems you prefer John's answer. Was it after his death?

which he accomplished in Christ when he raised him from the dead and made him sit at his right hand in the heavenly places,
far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come;
and he has put all things under his feet and has made him the head over all things for the church (Ephesians 1:20)

At his baptism?

and a voice came from heaven, "Thou art my beloved Son; with thee I am well pleased." (Mark 1:10-11)

At his conception or birth?

And the angel said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God. (Luke 1:35)

Or, as you say in agreement with John, from eternity? To me at least, this shows a development in the belief about who Jesus was (John being the last gospel written, and the one with the most developed Christology).

Counter question: at what point did the Most High become God?

God did not become God. He is.

[malakhi]

'Course you've got the lineage in Matthew 1 and in Luke 3...........

Those are genealogies of Joseph. Was Joseph Jesus's biological father?

[malakhi]

It is just your assumption that Noah earned grace.

No, it is my belief that God's favor of him was not unmerited. The scripture says Noah was "righteous" and "blameless".

So there was absolutely nothing different about Noah that distinguished him from the rest of the people living at the time? God's selection of him to be saved from the flood was mere whimsy on His part? God could have chosen any other of the evil people living at the time?

God acts first for the sake of His name and glory, not for the benefit of man or even for Israel:

I fail to see how this answers my question.

[malakhi]

The theory I heard was that while the rest of the Sethites had intermarried with the Nephilim and Cain's line of descent that Noah's line of descent was pure Sethite. Is this a Jewish understanding?

Some Jews have advanced this view, but it is not a universally held belief.

[malakhi]

What he meant is they are cooked Ange.

I don't read it that way. I see it more like ponyespresso does in #549.

[lockeliberty]

Some Jews have advanced this view, but it is not a universally held belief.

I take it that you are not one of those who hold to this view. It seems to me, from a Jewish perspective, this would make a lot of sense since genealogy is so important to the Jews.

[CCWoody]

But that is not true on its face. In my example, the man who steals is guilty of theft, not adultery. He has not kept the law against stealing, but he has kept the law against adultery. Would it be just to punish him for violating all of the Law if he only violated one of them?

James is saying that if you are incapable of keeping the law against stealing you are also incapable of keeping the law against adultery. It is your nature to be a law breaker.

If it was a simple matter of making an atonement for a crime or crimes, any man could do this. But it is not; we need to be saved from who we are. We are the ones who need to be washed and covered by the LORD.

Simply illogical. We are finite, and thus are incapable of infinite action. The magnitude of the crime is based upon what we do, not to whom we do it. Murder is murder. It is not a more serious crime to murder a wealthy and powerful person than it is to murder a drug-addicted prostitute. The identity of the victim is irrelevent to the magnitude of the crime.

If you believe you are finite, then when will your eternal end come? Was the LORD the God of Abraham or is the LORD the God of Abraham? Is Abraham finite or is Abraham infinte?

The magnitude of the crime is based upon what we do and therefore a crime against God is a crime of infinite magnitude. A murder against a man, any man, deserves death according to the Law. Likewise attempting to murder God deserves eternal death. When a man executes another man, he kills his flesh; when God executes a man, he kills both spirit and flesh--it is eternal separation from God. I know you don't believe this; it is why you are Jewish and not a part of Spiritual Israel.

Although this phraseology may sound condescending, it is worth pointing out that it is more than what many Christians will concede to Judaism. To them, we are all going to burn in hell for eternity.

Hey, I didn't make the rules. The Lord Jesus says:

• No one comes to the Father except through Me.
• If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me.

If you have a problem with that, then I suggest you take it up with Him.

[malakhi]

I assume that you are looking for something more than the Matthew & Luke genealogies

These are genealogies of Joseph. Was Joseph Jesus's biological father?

[malakhi]

Once you've put the milk on your coffee, there's no way of getting the milk back out. Things have changed in an irreversible way. A different reality is now in existence.

Right. But that doesn't change the fact that the sin itself was a finite act.

[CubicleGuy]

Actually you believe the Bible is the Word of God unless Joesph Smith sees fit to exercise prophetic liscense and cut part out, change words or ignore portions that don't fit his revisionistic theology.

Which is no different from how any other religion shapes the Bible to fit its own viewpoint and theology. If any given religion doesn't like the way a certain scripture doesn't seem to fit into its theology, then it comes up with an interpretation that bends, folds, spindles and mutilates the meaning of that scripture until it does fit.

You're just unhappy that Joseph Smith claims authority and permission from God for doing so. No number of appeals to various Greek manuscripts is going to be able to discount that claim of authority. The office of prophet isn't a popularity contest where the outcome is voted upon by counting the various translations of Greek manuscripts.

Here's what Nibley has to say about Joseph's "translations":

            We must not think that the Lord in giving his servants special devices to assist them was letting them off easy. He did not hand them the answer-book but only a slide rule. It takes far more formidable qualifications and far more intense concentration and cerebration to use a seerstone than it does to use a dictionary; the existence in our midst of computers does not mean, as some fondly suppose, that mathematicians and translators and genealogists no longer have to think-- they have to think harder than ever. A Urim and Thummim, like a dictionary, is only an aid to the translator who knows how to work it, and may be gradually dispensed with as he becomes more proficient in his spiritual exercise. Admittedly, translating with a Urim and Thummim is not the normal way; it does not require philological training, but training of a far more exacting sort, since like the seer-stone it shows "things which are not visible to the natural eye" (Moses 6:35-36); it operates, as Buckminster Fuller would say, by the mind and not by the brain.  That requires even greater effort and discipline: "... when a man works by faith," said the Prophet, "he works by mental exertion, instead of exerting his physical powers."  It is the exertion of the mind, and it is the most strenuous and exacting work of all. Certainly the documents with which Joseph Smith was dealing could be translated in no other way than by the Spirit. How can any mortal ever know what the original first writer of Genesis had in mind save by the power of revelation? And without that knowledge no translation is possible. It was Brother Joseph's calling to interpret the minds of other dispensations to our own, and during the short time in which he worked at it he covered an astonishing lot of ground, handling huge masses of material which could only be rightly understood and explained by the power of revelation. In fulfilling his formidable mission he was never bound to any particular method or text or vocabulary or rules of grammar, since they are merely aids to any translator's ignorance. Every good translator will tell you that after all the aids and implements at his disposal, including his own long training, have been brought under contribution, it is in the last analysis his own feeling for things that makes a convincing translation-- without intuition he could never make it. If truly scientific translation were possible, machine translation would have been perfected long ago; but where wide gaps of time and culture exist such a thing as a perfect translation is out of the question: in the end it is the translator's own imponderable intuition that is his claim to distinction. The most learned linguists do not make the best translators, and the uncanny skill of a Scaliger, Hicks, George Smith, or Ll. Griffith could divine the meaning of texts before which science and scholarship were helpless.

[malakhi]

I take it that you are not one of those who hold to this view.

I wouldn't say that. Frankly it is an issue I haven't looked into to any depth.

[lockeliberty]

I come from a Calvinist covenant theological perspective which in many ways mirrors the Jewish perpective as opposed to the dispensational Christians.

[SoothingDave]

Right. But that doesn't change the fact that the sin itself was a finite act.

I don't think I follow. What is finite? The act of pouring the milk is finite, but the repercussions of that act continue on into infinity.

Unless you are arguing that existence (or existence as we know it) is finite.

SD

[drstevej]

You, Me and the JST. RE: The cordial discussion challenge: Are we on or off???

Or do you just want to bob and weave, post and avoid on this issue? Do I need to remind you of the guidelines?

[RnMomof7]

I could have SWORN it was FATE!

Guess you could call it that ..or you could call it the sovereignity of God

  Eph 3:11   According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

  Gen 21:12   And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.

1:5Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Gal 1:15   But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called [me] by his grace,

[RnMomof7]

Jeuse was the King from the line of David by adoption..just as we are the children of God and the brothers and sisters of Christ by adoption...

Jewish law recognized adopted childern as eligible to inherit

On His mothers side his human inheritance is from the line of David through Nathan..On His stepfathers side He is the King by adoption through the line of Solomon