Pollster says he can't find Christianity transforming lives

Los Angeles Times | Published Sep 28, 2002 | William Lobdell

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

VENTURA, Calif. -- Pollster George Barna, known these days as the bearer of bad tidings about the state of Christianity in America, arrived in his office a few minutes late for a 10 a.m. appointment.

His hair was ruffled; his eyes puffy. Shoulders slouched. Being the George Gallup of the conservative evangelical world is a heavy burden for Barna, who often works into the early morning, deciphering numbers generated by his surveys to find church trends.

The 48-year-old author of 30 books, who describes himself as a raging introvert, is a popular national speaker. And he produces enough in-your-face statistics and blunt talk to irritate pastors, cost him business and earn a reputation for having, as one magazine put it, "the gift of discouragement."

His data undercut some of the core beliefs that should, by definition, set evangelicals apart from their more liberal brethren. Findings of his polls show, for example, that:

• The divorce rate is no different for born-again Christians than for those who do not consider themselves religious.

• Only a minority of born-again adults (44 percent) and a tiny proportion of born-again teenagers (9 percent) are certain that absolute moral truth exists.

• Most Christians' votes are influenced more by economic self-interest than by spiritual and moral values.

• Desiring to have a close, personal relationship with God ranks sixth among the 21 life goals tested among born-agains, trailing such desires as "living a comfortable lifestyle."

'Are people's lives being transformed" by Christianity? Barna has asked. "We can't find evidence of a transformation."

Even Barna's toughest critics concede that Barna Research Group's polls carry considerable weight because of his first-rate surveying techniques and his 17-year-long record of tracking church and cultural trends.

His work has been used by major companies (Ford Motor Co. and Walt Disney, for example) and religious organizations such as the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association and World Vision.

"He is the accepted authority on church trends," said Bob Cavin, director of the Texas Baptist Leadership Center. "He gives pastors insight, not only into the effectiveness of the church, but with trends in society that help the pastors with their strategic planning."

Because of his influence, many are watching with interest as Barna branches out from his usual business. He has been preoccupied with quantifying contemporary Christian beliefs, attitudes and practices; comparing them with biblical truths; and delivering the results to pastors, Christian leaders and laity. He said that he once hoped his analyses would be used as building blocks for more relevant churches.

But he decided this year to take a more active role by helping to identify and develop new and better church leaders who will boldly go where their predecessors haven't gone before: to radically revamp the church. He said he believes the process will take decades -- generations -- to complete.

"One of our challenges is to revisit the structures and means through which people experience Christ," Barna said. "People have been talking about developing the 'new church' for the past several decades, but nothing new has been forthcoming."

According to Barna, pastors are great teachers, but not necessarily adept at leadership. To back up his claim, he cited one of his own polls: It showed that only 12 percent of senior pastors say they have the spiritual gift of leadership and 8 percent say they have the gift of evangelism. In contrast, two-thirds say they have the gift of teaching or preaching.

"We, not God, have created a system that doesn't work and that we're reluctant to change."

Barna also is in the early stages of establishing a genuine and appealing Christian presence in secular entities: film, music, media and politics. He has identified these as the institutions that hold the most influence over Americans.

What's needed are "skilled professionals who love Christ and model his ways through their thoughts, words and behavior in enviable and biblically consistent ways," he said.

For Barna, the need for better leadership and better Christian role models in the secular world was underscored by a poll he released this month.

9/11 opportunity lost

The survey showed that the Sept. 11 attacks had virtually no lasting effects on America's faith, despite a 20 percent rise in church attendance during the first few weeks afterward.

"We missed a huge opportunity," he said, adding that, because of their own shallow faith, church regulars needed so much reassurance themselves that they couldn't minister to newcomers.

This kind of comment bothers evangelical Christians.

Mike Regele, author of "The Death of the Church," is one of many who believe the Barna Research Group's statistical work is excellent, but the conclusions drawn by the company's founder are too harsh.

The hypocrisy of Christians, Regele said, "has been a part of the church, probably since the day of Pentecost" and doesn't indicate its collapse.

"It sounds like he's very, very angry at the church," said Regele, a church critic himself who is ultimately an optimist. "There are reasons to be disappointed, but scripture never said we'd be perfect. We shouldn't view the whole institution as a failure."

With each new Barna poll or book, the attacks begin again: He's too negative; he has it in for pastors; he's arrogant.

The criticism "would affect any human being," said Barna, a husband and father of two. "We all want to be loved and accepted by others, but we also have a higher calling to which we each must be true."

Barna said he has learned painfully that giving advice on how to revitalize churches in America is a hugely complex proposition that doesn't fit well into sound bites. He has learned to be more guarded.

Although his statistics often show self-described Christians living lives no different from those of atheists, Barna's faith never has wavered.

"The issue isn't whether Jesus or Christianity is real," he said. "The issue is, are Americans willing to put Christ first in their lives?

[xzins]

That is not the point of James 2:10. What it is saying is that if you cannot keep the whole Law, you cannot keep any of the Law. Thus, if you have looked lustfully at another man's wife and thus, have committed adultery in your heart, you have also in your life broken every other point of the Law as well.

The law of man can be transgressed in terms of shoplifting and you can be guilty of that offense, and be called a lawbreaker. That is before men and the stigma is removed by paying one's debt to society. Then one is no longer a lawbreaker.

The law of God is different. If I commit theft, then I am guilty of all....that is I am a LAWBREAKER. Since the law is part of the covenant of salvation with those who are under the law, then I have broken the covenant. My standing before God is "lawbreaker." I have not kept the law, and, therefore, I have not met the requirement for salvation. In THAT regard, theft is as bad as murder.

At that point, I need some means to remove that blemish from my record. Since the violation of God's law is an eternal issue, because SALVATION is an eternal issue, why should God want a self-indulgent violator like me to be free in His creation for eternity to wreak havoc? Actually, He needs to protect eternity from me.

You can see how shedding the blood of a bull or a sheep really doesn't affect that. It might show that I have "remorse" that a life had to die because of my guilt. But, then again, it could just a "religious" protocol that I'm going through, and it shows no remorse whatever. It just shows that I can go through the motions.

I need a far greater sacrifice. I need a sacrifice by one who can actually affect my standing with God; by one who has a relationship with God. I need an advocate before God.

Abraham believed against the evidence of his eyes and it was counted to him as righteousness -- that he had been absolved of his guilt and put back into good standing.

Our absolution comes after we, too, believe against the evidence of our eyes. We believe that the advocate we need was human, that he was killed, buried, and resurrected on the 3rd Day, and that he ascended to sit at the right hand of God the Father Almighty.

To truly take that step, to truly desire that absolution of guilt so much.....perhaps it's an indication of real remorse. In any case, God saves us in Christ, through the advocate who has paid the penalty for our sin.

[CCWoody]

Towards the end of his life, some of his followers believed him to be the messiah.

Let me know if within a few years, this religion spreads across the entire globe. Within a few years that the Christ of the LORD was murdered in Jerusalem, the Way has spread across the known world.

After his death, some of them still continued to believe he was the messiah, despite the long-established teaching of orthodox Judaism that the messianic prophecies will be fulfilled within the messiah's lifetime.

I asked you this before and you didn't answer: What are these prophecies about the Messiah and where are they in the Hebrew scriptures? I'm curious to know what you believe they teach.

Trick question: at what point did Jesus become God?

He was begotten from eternity. Counter question: at what point did the Most High become God?

[Elsie]

BTW, I haven't seen you answer my question as to how exactly Jesus is of the line of David. If I missed it, can you point me to the post?

This guy seemed to think so...........

---

NIV Luke 2:21-39
 21.  On the eighth day, when it was time to circumcise him, he was named Jesus, the name the angel had given him before he had been conceived.
 22.  When the time of their purification according to the Law of Moses had been completed, Joseph and Mary took him to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord
 23.  (as it is written in the Law of the Lord, "Every firstborn male is to be consecrated to the Lord" ),
 24.  and to offer a sacrifice in keeping with what is said in the Law of the Lord: "a pair of doves or two young pigeons." 
 25.  Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him.
 26.  It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not die before he had seen the Lord's Christ.
 27.  Moved by the Spirit, he went into the temple courts. When the parents brought in the child Jesus to do for him what the custom of the Law required,
 28.  Simeon took him in his arms and praised God, saying:
 29.  "Sovereign Lord, as you have promised, you now dismiss your servant in peace.
 30.  For my eyes have seen your salvation,
 31.  which you have prepared in the sight of all people,
 32.  a light for revelation to the Gentiles and for glory to your people Israel."
 33.  The child's father and mother marveled at what was said about him.
 34.  Then Simeon blessed them and said to Mary, his mother: "This child is destined to cause the falling and rising of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be spoken against,
 35.  so that the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed. And a sword will pierce your own soul too."
 36.  There was also a prophetess, Anna, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was very old; she had lived with her husband seven years after her marriage,
 37.  and then was a widow until she was eighty-four.  She never left the temple but worshiped night and day, fasting and praying.
 38.  Coming up to them at that very moment, she gave thanks to God and spoke about the child to all who were looking forward to the redemption of Jerusalem.
 39.  When Joseph and Mary had done everything required by the Law of the Lord, they returned to Galilee to their own town of Nazareth.

 

---

'Course you've got the lineage in Matthew 1 and in Luke 3...........

---

 

NIV Luke 2:3-5
 3.  And everyone went to his own town to register.
 4.  So Joseph also went up from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to Bethlehem the town of David, because he belonged to the house and line of David.
 5.  He went there to register with Mary, who was pledged to be married to him and was expecting a child.

[CCWoody]

God's acceptance of Noah was unmerited? The fact that the rest are called "wicked" while Noah is called "righteous" and "blameless" is irrelevent?

• Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

It is just your assumption that Noah earned grace.

So there was absolutely nothing different about Noah that distinguished him from the rest of the people living at the time? God's selection of him to be saved from the flood was mere whimsy on His part? God could have chosen any other of the evil people living at the time?

God acts first for the sake of His name and glory, not for the benefit of man or even for Israel:

• Ezekel 20:8-9 But they rebelled against Me and would not hearken unto Me. They did not every man cast away the abominations of their eyes, neither did they forsake the idols of Egypt. "`Then I said, "I will pour out My fury upon them, to accomplish My anger against them in the midst of the land of Egypt." But I wrought for My name's sake, that it should not be polluted before the heathen among whom they were, in whose sight I made Myself known unto them in bringing them forth out of the land of Egypt.

[jude24]

Why did Paul CONTINUALLY write warnings -- TO BELIEVERS in the church, if this were NOT a possibility?

None of the verses demonstrated show anything other than a responsibility to evangelism.

Your "exegesis" is fundamentally flawed. Most of the references quoted are irrelevant. Only a few have any bearing whatsoever, and you have twisted them well beyond the meaning of the passage.

NIV James 1:12 12. Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.

Context, context, context. If you can't use the verse in context, don't bother. The immediate context is clearly demonstrated in v. 2 -- "Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials."

18. He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created. Your emphasis on "might" was quite misplaced. At the very least, you could have checked another translation, and you would have found the sense in which "that you might be" was used. The NASB renders that clause "that we would be a kind of first fruits." Similarly for the KJV, Darby, and RSV.

NIV James 2:12-13 12. Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13. because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!

Completely irrelevant to the issue. What, did you look for the word "freedom"?

NIV James 4:5-6 5. Or do you think Scripture says without reason that the spirit he caused to live in us envies intensely? 6. But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says: "God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble."

Completely irrelavant. What, do you think we calvinists are a bounch of elitists? Very much the opposite -- we realize that there is nothing good about ourselves, we know "who makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive?" (I Cor. 4:7). The Arminian, conversely, must admit that he was converted (if at all) becasuse either he was more intelligent or spiritually attuned than the unbelievers, both of which are flatly contradicted by I Cor. 1-3.

19. My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, 20. remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

Here we see the biggest shortcoming of the Arminian system -- it all too frequently takes a passage addressed to believers ("brothers", "one of you") and throws it open to the whole world. Bad exegesis. This refers to regenerated believers.

NIV Romans 11:13-14 13. I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14. in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

NIV 1 Corinthians 9:19-23 19. Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20. To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. 22. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. 23. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.

The above prove little except that we shouldnt let the law get in the way of our evangelism, nor should we let the lawless. There are times where we must subject ourselves to the legalistic attiutudes of others for the sake of evangelism. If I go as a missionary to the middle east, I'm not going to bring several kegs of beer, even though I would be well within scriptural bounds to partake (as long as it doesnt turn to drunkenness). That would harm any credibility I would have with my Muslim targets.

39. Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses. 40. Take care that what the prophets have said does not happen to you:

Uttered to Jews believing themselves to be justufied by the law.

I stand by my, drstevej's, and RnMomof7's statements.

I suggest you learn some basic hermaneutics. The first rule, first, foremost, and always is context is of primary importance. Isolated proof texts prove nothing without a fairly good contextual understanding to back it up. Heck, if I ignore context, I can Biblically prove there's no God! (cf. Ps 14:1)

[lockeliberty]

God's acceptance of Noah was unmerited?

The theory I heard was that while the rest of the Sethites had intermarried with the Nephilim and Cain's line of descent that Noah's line of descent was pure Sethite. Is this a Jewish understanding?

[Elsie]

Whoo!!!

I've ONLY been an hour and a half, catching up on this thread, now I can have breakfast!

---

(I know, when I get back, 100-200 or maybe 300 more posts will have been pasted on here.)

But the bottom line is this........

---

NIV Isaiah 55:7-9
 7.  Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts. Let him turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.
 8.  "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,"  declares the LORD.
 9.  "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

 

 

NIV 1 Corinthians 2:9-11
 9.  However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him" --
 10.  but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.   The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.
 11.  For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

[RnMomof7]

When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.
They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them (Romans 2:14-15)

What he meant is they are cooked Ange..cause if they have ever broken one law they are unclean and not worthy to stand in the presence of Holy God..they are judged by the law they choose..the law of the Jews or the law of they conscience. Neithor law can ever be kept perfectly . That is why we need to be clothed in the righteousnes of Christ to enter into Gods presence. That is why Jesus came..that is why we need a Saviour

[RnMomof7]

Seperating the Jews from the surrounding nations..is correct i was not speaking to about them..

Those Jews that were obedient and looked forward to the promise by faith are listed in Hebrews 11..not a very long list Ange.

[Elsie]

I suggest you learn some basic hermaneutics. The first rule, first, foremost, and always is context is of primary importance. Isolated proof texts prove nothing without a fairly good contextual understanding to back it up. Heck, if I ignore context, I can Biblically prove there's no God! (cf. Ps 14:1)

Your own Rnmom0f7 posted a big gob of text that someone refused to SLOG thru. I was worried that I had posted TOO MUCH and you are complaining of too little.

Go figure.

I CAN throw down all of it, in context, but that will NOT make you happy. Everyone on this thread has a good grasp on what the Scripture SAYS. We just vary greatly over what it means!

And, I would venture to state, that what we think it MEANS is determined by what 'ISM' we believe in, rather than the other way around.

[SoothingDave]

Say! Do you have a nice, condensed, easy to understand formula for the Calvinist postion?

Sure!

"Everything is God's Fault"

SD

[malakhi]

Say! Do you have a nice, condensed, easy to understand formula for the Calvinist postion?

Hi Elsie. I'm not sure such a thing exists! ;o)

[RnMomof7]

The preaching of this truth converted 3000 to the Lord on the day of Pentecost.


How many Jews died on the day that Moses delivered the Law to the Jews? The wheat and the tares will grow side by side..nothing at all strange about that ..

[SoothingDave]

Re 489

Some of it was foreordained I suspect and some allowed..but all of it was within His will and His plan

Say what? I thought everything was foreordained? How could God "allow" things to happen? Is man's will greater than God's?

SD

[RnMomof7]

***And this is where we can actually get excited about evangelism! Because the Truth has been revealed to us, we have a opportunity to share the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob with those who are searching (which, contrary to RnMomof7's misreading of Scripture, EVERYONE is searching!)***

---

Yea Paul was a liar and YOU have the truth..Can you find an elephant in a breadbox? Men are seeking to be gods..just like Adam..

Paul seemed to feel pretty stongly about this

  
  Rom 3:10   As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
  
  Rom 3:11   There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
  
  Rom 3:12   They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
  
  Rom 3:13   Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips:
  
  Rom 3:14   Whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness:
  
  Rom 3:15   Their feet [are] swift to shed blood:
  
  Rom 3:16   Destruction and misery [are] in their ways:
  
  Rom 3:17   And the way of peace have they not known:
  
  Rom 3:18   There is no fear of God before their eyes.
  
  Rom 3:19   Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.


Pony No one will come unless they are dragged in by the Grace of God..Paul knew that .

The problem is with your understanding
Mat 13:13   Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Rom 8:7   Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

[RnMomof7]

I am sure cj will be reassured by your agreement.

[SoothingDave]

Re 459, 501

PE:I mean, just a cursory glance through different cultures of the world would show that seeking after God is something that people from around the world engages in quite a lot, in fact. I mean, how many world religions can you think of: Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism (yes, has simple philosophical roots but it is basically a world religion now), Shinto, Bahai, Zoroastrianism (I know there are a few still out there) just to count a few major world religions. Then, from there, we could count the myriad of more localized tribal or natural religions.

Now, before I go further I of course need to make the disclaimer that I do not believe that any of these religions will lead a person directly to Jesus Christ and a saving faith in Him. However, these are, in and of themselves, faiths in some form of a god (small g). If you were right, and no man truly seeketh after God (in the way that you are using this verse), then the world should be void of temples, mosques, churches, alters, rings or whatever people would use to seek out answers from a divine, otherworldly source. But the world is not void of these; in fact, the world is brimming with these. People around the world, and throughout time, have sought to find some answers about the meaning and purpose of their lives here on earth, and while some have looked inwardly, most have looked outwardly (upwardly) to seek, desperately seek, God.

Now, if you want to say that most people don't want to know Jesus specifically, but want their own version of God, well I would tend to agree with you on that. I would probably go one step further and say that most of those who call themselves Christians don't want to really know Jesus specifically, which, by the way, is really what Barna's research is showing and showing quite well. But to use that quote so somehow suggest that all people are one small step away from eating each others raw flesh (which, I think, you alluded to in one post somewhere), I think you are wrong. Someone said that we have a God-sized hole in us, and I believe that completely. We were created to be relational beings and, ultimately, be in relationship with our Creator, and no amount of corruption from the Fall can take that most elemental purpose of our nature out of us.

Yes, exactly. Thank you for the good points. When I first read this I knew that what you were saying would be misunderstood and seen as an affront to certain folks carefully constructed beliefs.

JS:I'll stop back later to see if pe has figured out the differences of the God of the Bible from the Jaguar god of southern Mexico. Or maybe those demons that the Santera cult of Northern Mexico and the southern US likes to kill animals and people to. Unbelievable.

Jesse, what you say is a wild mischaracterization of what PE said. But it is a whole lot easier to see the world in black and white.

SD

[SoothingDave]

Re 492

See ange he does not even hear your prayer.. you are caught in a viscious circle.. God will not hear your prayer if you are a sinner...and you can not repent that sin because He can not hear you

What a bunch of codswallop. We're all sinners (aren't you?), so I guess God doesnt' hear any of our prayers. What rot.

SD

[RnMomof7]

The Book of Lifw WAS CREATED before the foundation of the world, but WE choose whether or not our names are there.

Ahhhhh kind of an autobiography with a ghost writer huh?

Tell me Elsie did God do anything or did you do the whole thing yourself?

[drstevej]

I do seriously consider and have concern for the possibility of dishonoring Christ, of loosing reward of not being a faithful servant and facing discipline as a result. I do no fear loss of salvation.

I desire to be a clear witness for Christ not because if I am not clear then God can not bring the person I am talking with to Christ... but because He commands me to be clear. That being said, it is not my persuasion that brings a spiritual corpse to life, it is His power.

BTW, being a member of a Wesleyan Congregation does not make you an Arminian and more that being a member of a Presbyterian church makes one a Calvinist. You are a Wesleyan Arminian if you embrace that doctrinal understanding of Scripture. In any case, you are my brother in Christ.