Posted on 09/30/2002 9:19:01 AM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
VENTURA, Calif. -- Pollster George Barna, known these days as the bearer of bad tidings about the state of Christianity in America, arrived in his office a few minutes late for a 10 a.m. appointment.
His hair was ruffled; his eyes puffy. Shoulders slouched. Being the George Gallup of the conservative evangelical world is a heavy burden for Barna, who often works into the early morning, deciphering numbers generated by his surveys to find church trends.
The 48-year-old author of 30 books, who describes himself as a raging introvert, is a popular national speaker. And he produces enough in-your-face statistics and blunt talk to irritate pastors, cost him business and earn a reputation for having, as one magazine put it, "the gift of discouragement."
His data undercut some of the core beliefs that should, by definition, set evangelicals apart from their more liberal brethren. Findings of his polls show, for example, that:
• The divorce rate is no different for born-again Christians than for those who do not consider themselves religious.
• Only a minority of born-again adults (44 percent) and a tiny proportion of born-again teenagers (9 percent) are certain that absolute moral truth exists.
• Most Christians' votes are influenced more by economic self-interest than by spiritual and moral values.
• Desiring to have a close, personal relationship with God ranks sixth among the 21 life goals tested among born-agains, trailing such desires as "living a comfortable lifestyle."
'Are people's lives being transformed" by Christianity? Barna has asked. "We can't find evidence of a transformation."
Even Barna's toughest critics concede that Barna Research Group's polls carry considerable weight because of his first-rate surveying techniques and his 17-year-long record of tracking church and cultural trends.
His work has been used by major companies (Ford Motor Co. and Walt Disney, for example) and religious organizations such as the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association and World Vision.
"He is the accepted authority on church trends," said Bob Cavin, director of the Texas Baptist Leadership Center. "He gives pastors insight, not only into the effectiveness of the church, but with trends in society that help the pastors with their strategic planning."
Because of his influence, many are watching with interest as Barna branches out from his usual business. He has been preoccupied with quantifying contemporary Christian beliefs, attitudes and practices; comparing them with biblical truths; and delivering the results to pastors, Christian leaders and laity. He said that he once hoped his analyses would be used as building blocks for more relevant churches.
But he decided this year to take a more active role by helping to identify and develop new and better church leaders who will boldly go where their predecessors haven't gone before: to radically revamp the church. He said he believes the process will take decades -- generations -- to complete.
"One of our challenges is to revisit the structures and means through which people experience Christ," Barna said. "People have been talking about developing the 'new church' for the past several decades, but nothing new has been forthcoming."
According to Barna, pastors are great teachers, but not necessarily adept at leadership. To back up his claim, he cited one of his own polls: It showed that only 12 percent of senior pastors say they have the spiritual gift of leadership and 8 percent say they have the gift of evangelism. In contrast, two-thirds say they have the gift of teaching or preaching.
"We, not God, have created a system that doesn't work and that we're reluctant to change."
Barna also is in the early stages of establishing a genuine and appealing Christian presence in secular entities: film, music, media and politics. He has identified these as the institutions that hold the most influence over Americans.
What's needed are "skilled professionals who love Christ and model his ways through their thoughts, words and behavior in enviable and biblically consistent ways," he said.
For Barna, the need for better leadership and better Christian role models in the secular world was underscored by a poll he released this month.
9/11 opportunity lost
The survey showed that the Sept. 11 attacks had virtually no lasting effects on America's faith, despite a 20 percent rise in church attendance during the first few weeks afterward.
"We missed a huge opportunity," he said, adding that, because of their own shallow faith, church regulars needed so much reassurance themselves that they couldn't minister to newcomers.
This kind of comment bothers evangelical Christians.
Mike Regele, author of "The Death of the Church," is one of many who believe the Barna Research Group's statistical work is excellent, but the conclusions drawn by the company's founder are too harsh.
The hypocrisy of Christians, Regele said, "has been a part of the church, probably since the day of Pentecost" and doesn't indicate its collapse.
"It sounds like he's very, very angry at the church," said Regele, a church critic himself who is ultimately an optimist. "There are reasons to be disappointed, but scripture never said we'd be perfect. We shouldn't view the whole institution as a failure."
With each new Barna poll or book, the attacks begin again: He's too negative; he has it in for pastors; he's arrogant.
The criticism "would affect any human being," said Barna, a husband and father of two. "We all want to be loved and accepted by others, but we also have a higher calling to which we each must be true."
Barna said he has learned painfully that giving advice on how to revitalize churches in America is a hugely complex proposition that doesn't fit well into sound bites. He has learned to be more guarded.
Although his statistics often show self-described Christians living lives no different from those of atheists, Barna's faith never has wavered.
"The issue isn't whether Jesus or Christianity is real," he said. "The issue is, are Americans willing to put Christ first in their lives?
I read Rev. 13:8 as referring to the Lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world (prophecy), not the Book of Life as being from the foundation of the world.
3. What was God's predestination selection criteria? "Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will," Oh, so God just decided "you" will be saved and "you" won't, randomly, on a whim? Sorry, but I don't believe God wants ANYONE not to be saved. I believe the "good pleasure of His will" is that all will come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. (I refer again to 2 Peter 3:9, which has been discussed and interpreted abundantly.)
So why do I need to share the gospel with anyone if their salvation has already been decided? Seems to me it's already a done deal. Why does God need me to share His love if salvation has already been decided?
Mom, YOU'RE the one who keeps asking everybody, "is God fair". You tell me.
I don't need assurance of salvation. I HAVE assurance of my salvation based on what God's Word says about how to be saved. (John 3:16, Romans 10:9-10, 1John 5:11-13) I would just like to know how Mom is so sure of HER salvation since she believes God seems to pick and choose who will be saved randomly, at will.
Those who end up in hell will be deserving because God gave them the choice to accept Him or reject Him. They chose the latter.
I was saved by God's grace and mercy. Christ paid my debt, God is completely just. This is the point of Rom 9.
Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God". I praise God for the gift of salvation through my faith in His Son, Jesus Christ and what He did when He died for me.
Yes, I believe God is sovereign, just and fair. Do I understand EVERYTHING? No, I don't, but I believe God sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to die for my sins and because I believe that, I have eternal life with Him. That's what matters.
Also, there is no place in scripture that EVER says that God accepted UNBELIEVING Israel. His elect was ALWAYS the remnant....ALWAYS the believers.
So the same result entails.
(On your good days:>)Others should have seen the FR mails that I sent you if they doubt that you make me nuts..But you are better some days than others..
I think you and mack have been talking past each other..
I have no problem with this verse. I like the part where God says that Abimelech has integrity in his heart. So much for "ultimate" depravity.
As far as God preventing from sin, that is proof of the blessing which can be ours in our everyday daily walk. It is the message of holiness that Wesley proclaimed. God will intervene for us. "There is no temptation taken you except that which is common to man; but God is faithful who will not suffer you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but will with the temptation provide a way to escape that you might be able to bear it."
Why would God bother to predestine someone that was already going to choose him? If He predestines everyone does that mean that the Muslims are saved? The Mormons? If not does it mean that God cannot do as He chooses to do? Does that mean that mans will is stronger than God?
I read Rev. 13:8 as referring to the Lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world (prophecy), not the Book of Life as being from the foundation of the world.
You need to read it again because we are chosen IN Him
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
3. What was God's predestination selection criteria? "Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will," Oh, so God just decided "you" will be saved and "you" won't, randomly, on a whim?
That is disrespectful to God. Do you think the word of God is filled with lies? It says it was according to His good pleasure. What was his reason for creating man? It was for His Glory..so the fact that He should choose to save some when we all deserve hell is for His glory
Here is what we do know
1Cr 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
So it is not that the elect is smarter than the non elect
Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
So it is not that the elect are holier
God gave an example for a type to us CJ
Read the story of Essau and Jacob... It ends like this Rom 9:11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Gods Good pleasure
Shame on you for mocking that CJ!!! God is God He can do as He pleases when He pleases.he is not subject to you.
That is what I meant when I said you believe your free will is sovereign not God!
Sorry, but I don't believe God wants ANYONE not to be saved.
Then He is a terrible failure.
I believe the "good pleasure of His will" is that all will come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. (I refer again to 2 Peter 3:9, which has been discussed and interpreted abundantly.)
So we should throw out Ephesians? You do not like it?? You have a god that is a failure. He wants all men saved but they just do not cooperate with him. Their will is sovereign. So only the smartest or the cleverest or the most holy make it. And he is so grateful that he can give you glory
CJ IF God intended all to be saved then all would be saved. If you have read this thread you have read the proof that all does not always mean all
Read 2Peter 3:7 - "But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."
Does that sound like God thought all would be saved?
So why do I need to share the gospel with anyone if his or her salvation has already been decided? Seems to me it's already a done deal. Why does God need me to share His love if salvation has already been decided?
I know you would rather think you saved someone than God did.but the truth is yes there eternity was sealed before the foundation of the earth.and god knew and planned to use you as the tool to acomplish his plan. He did it not you. He put you in the circumstance. He put the words in your mouth and His spirit will give a new heart to the person so they can hear the gospel.
Salvation is all of God, not CJ
Mom, YOU'RE the one who keeps asking everybody, "is God fair". You tell me.
I am?? (I think you have me mixed up with the Mormons .I do not remember ever saying that. But I think anything God decides is fair.
I don't need assurance of salvation. I HAVE assurance of my salvation based on what God's Word says about how to be saved. (John 3:16, Romans 10:9-10, 1John 5:11-13) I would just like to know how Mom is so sure of HER salvation since she believes God seems to pick and choose who will be saved randomly, at will.
You are sure of your salvation because you picked God. It does not matter what he thinks:>)
You tell me how do you know for sure you are saved. All the Mormons think they are saved.so you think you said a few magic words when you were 8 and thats it huh your in ??...God is VERY lucky to have ya CJ :>)
Those who end up in hell will be deserving because God gave them the choice to accept Him or reject Him. They chose the latter.
CJ Why would anyone CHOOSE hell? Are they too dumb to be saved? I will tell you what Jesus said. He said that He did not want them to hear the gospel it is hidden from them
Luk 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables:
What do you think Jesus meant when He said His sheep know His voice?
I was saved by God's grace and mercy. Christ paid my debt, God is completely just. This is the point of Rom 9.
No that is not what you believe .The cross did not save you ,your choice saved you
Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God".
Read that real close CJ...that faith was NOT of yourself.
.I praise God for the gift of salvation through my faith in His Son, Jesus Christ and what He did when He died for me.
What did he do on the cross did he save you or only make your salvation possible?
Yes, I believe God is sovereign, just and fair.
No your free will is sovereign without it Christ died in vain..
Please give me scripture that says God is fair and you may not use the BOM
Do I understand EVERYTHING? No, I don't, but I believe God sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to die for my sins and because I believe that, I have eternal life with Him. That's what matters.
What is the covenant spoken of at Sinai? Is it a revocation of the Abrahamic covenant, or a deepening of it?
What is the promise of Deut 32:21
What is your point here? That God is the God of all nations, and not just of Israel? Yes, I agree with that. God's relationship with the gentiles does not change his everlasting covenant with Israel.
These are not the only two possibilities. It is possible that Jesus was in fact an orthodox Jew who never made the claims to divinity later attributed to him. It is possible that in the decades after his death the hagiography progressed to the point of him being seen as divine. If you don't think this is possible, you may wish to consider the fascinating case of the Lubavitcher Rebbe Menachem Schneerson, who died in 1994. Towards the end of his life, some of his followers believed him to be the messiah. After his death, some of them still continued to believe he was the messiah, despite the long-established teaching of orthodox Judaism that the messianic prophecies will be fulfilled within the messiah's lifetime. Beyond even this, a subset of these messianics have claimed that Schneerson was God incarnate. I'm sure you will agree with me that the late Rebbe isn't God.
Trick question: at what point did Jesus become God?
And if He deserved His death, then I am nothing more than a God hating blasphemer myself.
Au contraire mon frere! As a gentile you are not bound to observe all the Law of the Torah. Gentiles are under the Noahide covenant. According to Judaism, non-Jews who follow (deliberately or otherwise) the Seven Laws of Noah (kind of a streamlined 10 Commandments) are righteous gentiles. Christianity is an acceptable form of monotheism for gentiles.
That is because they haven't yet explored the jungles of Harvard Divinity School. ;o)
So there was absolutely nothing different about Noah that distinguished him from the rest of the people living at the time? God's selection of him to be saved from the flood was mere whimsy on His part? God could have chosen any other of the evil people living at the time?
The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. (Genesis 6:5)
Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation; Noah walked with God. (Genesis 6:9)
God's acceptance of Noah was unmerited? The fact that the rest are called "wicked" while Noah is called "righteous" and "blameless" is irrelevent?
In your opinion, to whom does the first "Lord" refer, and to whom does the second refer? You may wish to consult Psalm 144 before you answer. You may also wish to consult the Hebrew and see that two different words are translated here as "Lord".
Please explain how Jesus is of the line of David.
What did Paul mean when he said
When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.
They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them (Romans 2:14-15)
Well, that is rather circularly defined. If they were worshippers of the God of Abraham, then they wouldn't be heathens, would they?
There are righteous gentiles in the Hebrew scriptures.
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