Posted on 09/30/2002 9:19:01 AM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
VENTURA, Calif. -- Pollster George Barna, known these days as the bearer of bad tidings about the state of Christianity in America, arrived in his office a few minutes late for a 10 a.m. appointment.
His hair was ruffled; his eyes puffy. Shoulders slouched. Being the George Gallup of the conservative evangelical world is a heavy burden for Barna, who often works into the early morning, deciphering numbers generated by his surveys to find church trends.
The 48-year-old author of 30 books, who describes himself as a raging introvert, is a popular national speaker. And he produces enough in-your-face statistics and blunt talk to irritate pastors, cost him business and earn a reputation for having, as one magazine put it, "the gift of discouragement."
His data undercut some of the core beliefs that should, by definition, set evangelicals apart from their more liberal brethren. Findings of his polls show, for example, that:
• The divorce rate is no different for born-again Christians than for those who do not consider themselves religious.
• Only a minority of born-again adults (44 percent) and a tiny proportion of born-again teenagers (9 percent) are certain that absolute moral truth exists.
• Most Christians' votes are influenced more by economic self-interest than by spiritual and moral values.
• Desiring to have a close, personal relationship with God ranks sixth among the 21 life goals tested among born-agains, trailing such desires as "living a comfortable lifestyle."
'Are people's lives being transformed" by Christianity? Barna has asked. "We can't find evidence of a transformation."
Even Barna's toughest critics concede that Barna Research Group's polls carry considerable weight because of his first-rate surveying techniques and his 17-year-long record of tracking church and cultural trends.
His work has been used by major companies (Ford Motor Co. and Walt Disney, for example) and religious organizations such as the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association and World Vision.
"He is the accepted authority on church trends," said Bob Cavin, director of the Texas Baptist Leadership Center. "He gives pastors insight, not only into the effectiveness of the church, but with trends in society that help the pastors with their strategic planning."
Because of his influence, many are watching with interest as Barna branches out from his usual business. He has been preoccupied with quantifying contemporary Christian beliefs, attitudes and practices; comparing them with biblical truths; and delivering the results to pastors, Christian leaders and laity. He said that he once hoped his analyses would be used as building blocks for more relevant churches.
But he decided this year to take a more active role by helping to identify and develop new and better church leaders who will boldly go where their predecessors haven't gone before: to radically revamp the church. He said he believes the process will take decades -- generations -- to complete.
"One of our challenges is to revisit the structures and means through which people experience Christ," Barna said. "People have been talking about developing the 'new church' for the past several decades, but nothing new has been forthcoming."
According to Barna, pastors are great teachers, but not necessarily adept at leadership. To back up his claim, he cited one of his own polls: It showed that only 12 percent of senior pastors say they have the spiritual gift of leadership and 8 percent say they have the gift of evangelism. In contrast, two-thirds say they have the gift of teaching or preaching.
"We, not God, have created a system that doesn't work and that we're reluctant to change."
Barna also is in the early stages of establishing a genuine and appealing Christian presence in secular entities: film, music, media and politics. He has identified these as the institutions that hold the most influence over Americans.
What's needed are "skilled professionals who love Christ and model his ways through their thoughts, words and behavior in enviable and biblically consistent ways," he said.
For Barna, the need for better leadership and better Christian role models in the secular world was underscored by a poll he released this month.
9/11 opportunity lost
The survey showed that the Sept. 11 attacks had virtually no lasting effects on America's faith, despite a 20 percent rise in church attendance during the first few weeks afterward.
"We missed a huge opportunity," he said, adding that, because of their own shallow faith, church regulars needed so much reassurance themselves that they couldn't minister to newcomers.
This kind of comment bothers evangelical Christians.
Mike Regele, author of "The Death of the Church," is one of many who believe the Barna Research Group's statistical work is excellent, but the conclusions drawn by the company's founder are too harsh.
The hypocrisy of Christians, Regele said, "has been a part of the church, probably since the day of Pentecost" and doesn't indicate its collapse.
"It sounds like he's very, very angry at the church," said Regele, a church critic himself who is ultimately an optimist. "There are reasons to be disappointed, but scripture never said we'd be perfect. We shouldn't view the whole institution as a failure."
With each new Barna poll or book, the attacks begin again: He's too negative; he has it in for pastors; he's arrogant.
The criticism "would affect any human being," said Barna, a husband and father of two. "We all want to be loved and accepted by others, but we also have a higher calling to which we each must be true."
Barna said he has learned painfully that giving advice on how to revitalize churches in America is a hugely complex proposition that doesn't fit well into sound bites. He has learned to be more guarded.
Although his statistics often show self-described Christians living lives no different from those of atheists, Barna's faith never has wavered.
"The issue isn't whether Jesus or Christianity is real," he said. "The issue is, are Americans willing to put Christ first in their lives?
Then you agree with us. Total is not the same as ultimate....there is a restraint that is built in by God.
We might argue about HOW it gets to be that way, but we all recognize that it is different.
It works both ways too. If we are predestined to be God's child, is our love genuine? What kind of love is love that was not given the choise to love or reject?
Becky
1)God did give us free will .But man will NEVER choose God . READ Romans Beckie
2) I did answer this in another post Becky...I asked you if God had to wait around and see what Becky would do before he made His plans ..who is God? Who's paln is it" Who is God Becky or God?
3)Why would a sovereign God wait on Terry or becky?You may not like it Becky but it is time to knock yourself off the throne and put Christ there
Jeremiah 29:11 For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD , "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.
Note it is HIS plan Becky...
Oooooooooh, good question, Becky! If God is absolutely sovereign, as the Calvinists, say, then of course he would have the power and authority to do precisely what you say. To say otherwise would be to undermine the claim of His absolute sovereignty.
God is totally sovereign Angelo
Now Becky I am waiting for your answer...Who was saved at the cross? Who saved you?
No different than your own version of prevenient grace, woody. You have them saved before they believe. Whatever finger you point at us, you have 3 pointing at yourself.
It is very different than "my" version of Prevenient Grace for you see, in my version of grace, which is the Biblically given version of this grace, it is regenerating grace. It is the kind of grace which says whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God.
But, if you really want to get picky, the Bible has the elect saved from before the foundation of the world:
Rev 13:8 And all who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose name have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
But really, you must answer "what" is dead. Because the human's body is clearly living.....otherwise, there's no issue is there?
Hostile to God. Those who are in the flesh, i.e. spiritually dead, cannot please God. It is to walk according to the prince of this world, whose spirit works in these people, just as the Bible says. Sprinkle as much prevenient fairy dust on them and they are still spiritually dead and cannot please God. Make them alive to God and they will believe, just as the scriptures say.
Of course. But some people don't want free will. They would rather wash their hands of it.
It would seem to me that the same people who can not see that God may use our freedom in advancing His Will are the same who do not grasp that He uses our humanity to acheive humanity's salvation.
2. Does God always get what He wants?
Ultimately, yes. The better question is "do we know what He wants all the time"?
SD
The problem with Calvinism is its attempt to reconcile and systematize that which the Bible does not reconcile.
Though there is value in systematic theology, there is also a danger. We must be careful simply to believe the Bible as it stands. I believe Acts 13:48, which says "as many as were ordained to eternal life believed," and I also believe Acts 13:46, which says the unbelieving Jews had rejected God's salvation and had judged themselves unworthy of everlasting life. I don't try to develop a theological system that will somehow make perfect sense of it all.
BigMack
God gave man free will. But man will never choose God
For those of you scoring at home, that's a big "no." Calvinists don't believe in a free will. They believe in, first, a depraved will, then in a slave will.
SD
So did they Ange? Why not? Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, [and] seek God.
Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are [all] together become filthy: [there is] none that doeth good, no, not one.
Psa 53:2 God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were [any] that did understand, that did seek God.
Psa 53:3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; [there is] none that doeth good, no, not one.
Jer 4:22 For my people [is] foolish, they have not known me; they [are] sottish children, and they have none understanding: they [are] wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.
Ange that is because of the fall...
No, He did not have to WAIT, because He foreknew.
Rom.8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son,, that he might be the first-born among many brethren."
He predestined us to be like Christ in His eyes because He Foreknew who would accept and who would reject because of the freeweill He gave each of us.
Now Becky I am waiting for your answer...Who was saved at the cross? Who saved you?
I answered very straightforward. Everyone who believes that Jesus' sacrafice on the cross paid the price for their sins is saved. Jesus Christ saved me because I believe and trust in what He says.
Becky
One theif believed, one didn't, one was saved, one was lost, one accepted Jesus, one didn't, its the same today.
No God didn't fail, it worked just like He said it would.
BigMack
Read it Becky...God is saying that he elect those to be saved according to His good pleasure not according to anything we do (like a sinners prayer or good works) or who we are..
Rom 9:10 And not only [this]; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, [even] by our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Psst, hey Becky. Tell Mom she's talking like God is bound by the time He created. ;-)
SD
No I am saying that God has given a general grace to all mankind..I am saying God has a right to select who he will save..Read Romans
So....God was just teasing the Israelites? Toying with them? Demanding that they choose good when He knew they had not the capacity to do so?
SD
What is the effect of this "general grace" on the reprobate? What purpose does it serve? Is this general grace sufficient to "save" anyone?
SD
Becky
Do you also believe that God has intentionally blinded some people..especially the jews ??
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Jhn 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
2Cr 3:14But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which [vail] is done away in Christ.
I guess then the verse angelo posted in not in your Bible?
And if you be unwilling to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." (Joshua 24:15)
BigMack
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