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Pollster says he can't find Christianity transforming lives
Los Angeles Times | Published Sep 28, 2002 | William Lobdell

Posted on 09/30/2002 9:19:01 AM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain

VENTURA, Calif. -- Pollster George Barna, known these days as the bearer of bad tidings about the state of Christianity in America, arrived in his office a few minutes late for a 10 a.m. appointment.

His hair was ruffled; his eyes puffy. Shoulders slouched. Being the George Gallup of the conservative evangelical world is a heavy burden for Barna, who often works into the early morning, deciphering numbers generated by his surveys to find church trends.

The 48-year-old author of 30 books, who describes himself as a raging introvert, is a popular national speaker. And he produces enough in-your-face statistics and blunt talk to irritate pastors, cost him business and earn a reputation for having, as one magazine put it, "the gift of discouragement."

His data undercut some of the core beliefs that should, by definition, set evangelicals apart from their more liberal brethren. Findings of his polls show, for example, that:

• The divorce rate is no different for born-again Christians than for those who do not consider themselves religious.

• Only a minority of born-again adults (44 percent) and a tiny proportion of born-again teenagers (9 percent) are certain that absolute moral truth exists.

• Most Christians' votes are influenced more by economic self-interest than by spiritual and moral values.

• Desiring to have a close, personal relationship with God ranks sixth among the 21 life goals tested among born-agains, trailing such desires as "living a comfortable lifestyle."

'Are people's lives being transformed" by Christianity? Barna has asked. "We can't find evidence of a transformation."

Even Barna's toughest critics concede that Barna Research Group's polls carry considerable weight because of his first-rate surveying techniques and his 17-year-long record of tracking church and cultural trends.

His work has been used by major companies (Ford Motor Co. and Walt Disney, for example) and religious organizations such as the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association and World Vision.

"He is the accepted authority on church trends," said Bob Cavin, director of the Texas Baptist Leadership Center. "He gives pastors insight, not only into the effectiveness of the church, but with trends in society that help the pastors with their strategic planning."

Because of his influence, many are watching with interest as Barna branches out from his usual business. He has been preoccupied with quantifying contemporary Christian beliefs, attitudes and practices; comparing them with biblical truths; and delivering the results to pastors, Christian leaders and laity. He said that he once hoped his analyses would be used as building blocks for more relevant churches.

But he decided this year to take a more active role by helping to identify and develop new and better church leaders who will boldly go where their predecessors haven't gone before: to radically revamp the church. He said he believes the process will take decades -- generations -- to complete.

"One of our challenges is to revisit the structures and means through which people experience Christ," Barna said. "People have been talking about developing the 'new church' for the past several decades, but nothing new has been forthcoming."

According to Barna, pastors are great teachers, but not necessarily adept at leadership. To back up his claim, he cited one of his own polls: It showed that only 12 percent of senior pastors say they have the spiritual gift of leadership and 8 percent say they have the gift of evangelism. In contrast, two-thirds say they have the gift of teaching or preaching.

"We, not God, have created a system that doesn't work and that we're reluctant to change."

Barna also is in the early stages of establishing a genuine and appealing Christian presence in secular entities: film, music, media and politics. He has identified these as the institutions that hold the most influence over Americans.

What's needed are "skilled professionals who love Christ and model his ways through their thoughts, words and behavior in enviable and biblically consistent ways," he said.

For Barna, the need for better leadership and better Christian role models in the secular world was underscored by a poll he released this month.

9/11 opportunity lost

The survey showed that the Sept. 11 attacks had virtually no lasting effects on America's faith, despite a 20 percent rise in church attendance during the first few weeks afterward.

"We missed a huge opportunity," he said, adding that, because of their own shallow faith, church regulars needed so much reassurance themselves that they couldn't minister to newcomers.

This kind of comment bothers evangelical Christians.

Mike Regele, author of "The Death of the Church," is one of many who believe the Barna Research Group's statistical work is excellent, but the conclusions drawn by the company's founder are too harsh.

The hypocrisy of Christians, Regele said, "has been a part of the church, probably since the day of Pentecost" and doesn't indicate its collapse.

"It sounds like he's very, very angry at the church," said Regele, a church critic himself who is ultimately an optimist. "There are reasons to be disappointed, but scripture never said we'd be perfect. We shouldn't view the whole institution as a failure."

With each new Barna poll or book, the attacks begin again: He's too negative; he has it in for pastors; he's arrogant.

The criticism "would affect any human being," said Barna, a husband and father of two. "We all want to be loved and accepted by others, but we also have a higher calling to which we each must be true."

Barna said he has learned painfully that giving advice on how to revitalize churches in America is a hugely complex proposition that doesn't fit well into sound bites. He has learned to be more guarded.

Although his statistics often show self-described Christians living lives no different from those of atheists, Barna's faith never has wavered.

"The issue isn't whether Jesus or Christianity is real," he said. "The issue is, are Americans willing to put Christ first in their lives?


TOPICS: Current Events; General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: not; transforminglives
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
IF God wanted too, do you think He could have given us freewill to choose? Do you think that if He gave everyone free choice He could have foreknew who would accept and who would reject, then use that knowledge to forward His plans? Would that be possible for a sovereign God?

Oooooooooh, good question, Becky! If God is absolutely sovereign, as the Calvinists, say, then of course he would have the power and authority to do precisely what you say. To say otherwise would be to undermine the claim of His absolute sovereignty.

201 posted on 10/01/2002 7:19:23 AM PDT by malakhi
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To: RnMomof7
But weren't OT saints saved at the cross despite what would have
transpired in the future?
202 posted on 10/01/2002 7:21:25 AM PDT by Woodkirk
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To: SoothingDave
How about this for an answer? This question, about which endless bickering ensues, is framed from our point of view, not from that of God's. The answer is not one or the other, but a curious and mystical mixture of both.

I know, I know ... its a mystery. ;o)

203 posted on 10/01/2002 7:21:56 AM PDT by malakhi
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To: RnMomof7
The confirmation of your election is your progress in sanctification. God predestined all the elect to be conformed to the image of Christ (Rom. 8:29). Therefore, the reassuring evidence of our election is Christ-likeness.
BUT.......

WHY does it need to be confirmed?

WHY does it need to be reassured?

204 posted on 10/01/2002 7:22:32 AM PDT by Elsie
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To: angelo
Rn is mischaracterizing the free choice (Arminian) position for effect....clear contrast. Actually we believe that man is dead from the fall. We believe not that he has enough spiritual life left to desire God, but that the Lord enlivens him to see the choice before him. In that momentarily enlivened/enlightened state he can see clearly to make a choice. (We call that prevenient grace....God's grace that comes before salvation.)

How close is this to the Catholic position that man's nature is fallen, but that he is not absolutely depraved?

Pretty darn.

I would say that God gives each person a measure of grace sufficient for them to choose to come to God. Obviously, to some He gives more, but there is a minimum grant to everyone. And a sufficient grant it is.

So the "fault" for those who reject God rests with the person, not with God. God gave sufficiently, man rejected.

Contrast this with my impression of Calvinism, that God simply does not will the salvation of some and never gives them grace or "stirs" them or "regenerates" them or whatever. God simply does not desire them to be saved and that's the way it is and we are not to quesiton it.

SD

205 posted on 10/01/2002 7:23:14 AM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: RnMomof7
Becky every man does have free will...but man will never will to choose God

And if you be unwilling to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." (Joshua 24:15)

206 posted on 10/01/2002 7:24:14 AM PDT by malakhi
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To: angelo
We draw a distinction between "total" depravity and "ultimate" depravity.

In other words, not every "sinful" creature MUST behave like Jeffrey Dahmer or Adolf Hitler. Also, "total" being different from "ultimate" depravity allows for recognizing that, for example, the love of a mother for her children, is a positive residue that abides within us by the grace of God.

Perhaps what we mean by "ultimate" is the same as what you mean by "absolute." I would guess that it does.
207 posted on 10/01/2002 7:25:30 AM PDT by xzins
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To: angelo
Have you noticed these questions have been passed over and not answered:)

Becky

208 posted on 10/01/2002 7:27:14 AM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
You did not aswer the question, and you are mischaracterizing what I am saying.

No Becky the problem is I am making you think about what you are saying

If you are reading the scripture correctly then every one is saved.,..as God always accomplishes what He desires. So if God desires every man to be saved that all must be saved period

If the only ones that were saved at the cross were those that would in the future seek Christ and chose him..it is possible that Jesus died for no one..

Paul tells us that in Romans

     Rom 3:10   As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:   

  Rom 3:11   There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

     Rom 3:12   They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

So if the dead man can not and does not seek after God..How is anyman at all saved?

It is a divine act of Gods grace that draws us Becky...HE is the AUTHOR (yes it is a written script as xzins says) and the finisher ('It is Finished") of our faith.

209 posted on 10/01/2002 7:28:48 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: xzins
I am a nurse xzins . I was never able to make a dead man take his medicine so he would be healed..
210 posted on 10/01/2002 7:34:32 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: Elsie
It is a testimony to the power of God ..or do you believe you are saved by your works?
211 posted on 10/01/2002 7:37:37 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7; PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
You did not aswer the question, and you are mischaracterizing what I am saying.

No Becky the problem is I am making you think about what you are saying

Mom, I think you are misreading what Becky said. To repeat, she said:

Everyone who is saved is saved by what Jesus did on the cross.

How do you get from this statement to calling her a universalist?

So if God desires every man to be saved that all must be saved period

Does God always get what He wants?

212 posted on 10/01/2002 7:38:59 AM PDT by malakhi
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To: SoothingDave
I would say that God gives each person a measure of grace sufficient for them to choose to come to God. Obviously, to some He gives more, but there is a minimum grant to everyone. And a sufficient grant it is.

So then Gods grace just doesn't work on every one ?Maybe he should have given a litte more to some folks huh?

213 posted on 10/01/2002 7:40:36 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: angelo
Why do some choose and some not Angelo that is the question at hand..what is the difference?
214 posted on 10/01/2002 7:42:06 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
So then Gods grace just doesn't work on every one ?Maybe he should have given a litte more to some folks huh?

1. If God is absolutely sovereign, does He not then have the power and authority to give us free will?

2. Does God always get what He wants?

215 posted on 10/01/2002 7:42:26 AM PDT by malakhi
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To: xzins; angelo
In other words, not every "sinful" creature MUST behave like Jeffrey Dahmer or Adolf Hitler. Also, "total" being different from "ultimate" depravity allows for recognizing that, for example, the love of a mother for her children, is a positive residue that abides within us by the grace of God.

I say in our unregenerated heart we are all Jeffery Dahmer and we are all Hitler...The difference is the restraing force of Gods grace...

216 posted on 10/01/2002 7:44:13 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
Why do some choose and some not Angelo that is the question at hand..what is the difference?

The difference comes down to free will. We have in our nature both good impulses and selfish impulses. God tells us what is good, but He gives us the choice as to which we choose.

I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live (Deuteronomy 30:19)

217 posted on 10/01/2002 7:45:23 AM PDT by malakhi
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To: RnMomof7
Rom. 9:29 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Faith Leaves it as the mystery of God's sovereignty and accepts it in humble obedience.

Becky

218 posted on 10/01/2002 7:48:00 AM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: RnMomof7
I would say that God gives each person a measure of grace sufficient for them to choose to come to God. Obviously, to some He gives more, but there is a minimum grant to everyone. And a sufficient grant it is.

So then Gods grace just doesn't work on every one ?Maybe he should have given a litte more to some folks huh?

Look up "sufficient." Or are you arguing that God should give everyone irresistable grace and save us all?

The issue here, as always, is that some internal mechanism makes Calvinists deny their own free will, to abdicate total responsibility to God. This makes them feel secure, apparently, to know that what they do matters not "one whit" towards their salvation. It is a very special kind of freedom.

SD

219 posted on 10/01/2002 7:49:19 AM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: RnMomof7
I say in our unregenerated heart we are all Jeffery Dahmer and we are all Hitler...The difference is the restraing force of Gods grace...

Noah, Abraham and Moses were all potential Hitlers except for the restraining force of God's grace? If we can only choose evil, except for God's intervention holding us back, then why doesn't God give everyone sufficient grace to restrain their evil impulses?

The problem is, if we have no free will, then we cannot justly be held responsible for our sins. If God has absolute sovereignty even over our moral choices, then ultimately God is responsible for the evil done by His automata.

Do you believe that we have free will?

220 posted on 10/01/2002 7:49:26 AM PDT by malakhi
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