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Pollster says he can't find Christianity transforming lives
Los Angeles Times | Published Sep 28, 2002 | William Lobdell

Posted on 09/30/2002 9:19:01 AM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain

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To: SoothingDave
Sure ...But I pray as Jesus taught...read Luke 11
181 posted on 10/01/2002 6:51:36 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: drstevej
Perhaps the last one will be you! That would be great.

But... only with Joseph Smith's approval.

182 posted on 10/01/2002 6:52:04 AM PDT by Elsie
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To: Elsie
If Joseph Smith approves, she isn't the last one!
183 posted on 10/01/2002 6:53:53 AM PDT by drstevej
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To: RnMomof7
So to me the order is..regeneration (born again), repentance ,conversion (saved) To Mack and Becky the order would be repentance,conversion (saved), regenerated into a new creature..(born again)

That was a concise and excellent explanation. Thanks Mom!

Reform doctrine says man is spiritually dead because of the fall...that means he must be Born again( regenerated )before he can desire to be saved.

Would the doctrine then be that only certain people are predestined to be "born again" and thus to desire being saved? This sounds very foreign to me; I'm more familiar with the "order of salvation" teaching as held by Mack and Becky.

As for myself, I'm even farther away from your position than Mack and Becky are, because I do not accept a doctrine of original sin.

184 posted on 10/01/2002 6:54:03 AM PDT by malakhi
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To: ppaul
Do you have a man REALLY called of God as your pastor, that is a strong leader, and has not watered down the gospel?

Or........

Do you have a man REALLY called of God as your pastor, that is a strong leader, and has not buried the gospel with all kinds of extraneous stuff?

185 posted on 10/01/2002 6:54:37 AM PDT by Elsie
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To: SoothingDave
Does this Barna have any numbers on how many Catholics enjoy the schadenfreude when two Sola Scriptura Christians collide? ;-)

I was thinking about taking one of those new 2003 Volkswagon Schadenfreudes for a test drive. ;o)

186 posted on 10/01/2002 6:55:37 AM PDT by malakhi
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
Everyone who is saved is saved by what Jesus did on the cross. That is where all sins can be forgiven, because that is where the price was paid for them.

So no one will go to hell because Christ died for all men? All the muslims and the athesists ? OR

NO one was saved at the cross...it was possible that NO ONE would have choosen Christ therefore He would have died for no one.

187 posted on 10/01/2002 6:55:41 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: SoothingDave
How many times have I told you? If you want to know the real deal, just ask me! :-)

I don't know, Dave. Everyone else, from the Orthodox to the Protestants, seems to think you are wrong. ;o)

188 posted on 10/01/2002 6:56:27 AM PDT by malakhi
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To: xzins
You repeated almost EXACTLY what I said and then you said I was wrong...xzing eithor one is dead or one is not dead..there is no in between state..
189 posted on 10/01/2002 6:57:25 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: angelo
OK, I'll concede the literal point! But I still maintain that the witness of the good works of Christians is as important a part of evangelizing as is the preaching that they do.

I never said they weren't. I think we all got off track on my original point.

The article was talking about the watering down of the word to get people to come to chruch. I said it was sad that the preacher had to remind people that at CHURCH YOUTH ACTIVITIES a short devontional that INCLUDED the plan of salvation should be given.

I now think it is just as sad that alot of people on here started in about NO, NO, NO, let the kids have fun. For heaven sakes, WHY do people think that if you talk about God, (and I don't mean just in a prayer) these kids won't have fun. This attitude says alot about peoples seriousness about God, and their love of their neighbors.

Becky

190 posted on 10/01/2002 7:01:46 AM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: RnMomof7
Correct me where I'm wrong. You said we believe "man is not quite dead."

I said we believe "man is dead."

Those are not the same. Did I write something different in the original post?

191 posted on 10/01/2002 7:02:48 AM PDT by xzins
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To: computerjunkie
My question (most likely a stupid question, but my question nonetheless): So if the end result is the same (assurance of salvation and where we will spend eternity), what difference does the "order of salvation" make? (Why do I have the sneaking hunch I'm gonna be sorry I asked that??!!) :)

Not a stupid question; in fact, it is a very good question.

192 posted on 10/01/2002 7:03:24 AM PDT by malakhi
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To: RnMomof7
Sure ...But I pray as Jesus taught...read Luke 11

I don't know why you can't just answer plainly.

Do you mean the "thy will be done" thing or this:

9"So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 10For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

Is it safe to say that you never petition God to change and only for those things that are already in His plan?

That prayer is basically an act of reconciling our desires to God's plan and not an act of asking God for what we piously desire?

SD

193 posted on 10/01/2002 7:05:51 AM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: computerjunkie
I believe God "predestined" everybody.

He provided the way. We have a choice.

Um, if God predestined everybody, then what choice do we have?

194 posted on 10/01/2002 7:07:35 AM PDT by malakhi
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To: angelo
I don't know, Dave. Everyone else, from the Orthodox to the Protestants, seems to think you are wrong. ;o)

Maybe so, but I've got the documentation to back me up -- they're all just making it up as they go along. ;-)

SD

195 posted on 10/01/2002 7:10:01 AM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: Elsie
NIV 2 Peter 1:10-11  10.  Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall,
 11.  and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

This book is written to believers Elsie

Piper says it this way
Peter is saying "Confirm your election! Make sure of it!" How? By standing in your faith and pressing on to virtue, knowledge, self-control, patience, godliness, brotherly affection and love. John said (in 1 John 3:14), "We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren" (cf. 2:3). The confirmation of your election is your progress in sanctification. God predestined all the elect to be conformed to the image of Christ (Rom. 8:29). Therefore, the reassuring evidence of our election is Christ-likeness.

I say it is all of God..from begining to end ..His grace called me,saved me and preserves me. He is the author and finisher of my faith ..not one wit me

Phl 2:13   For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

196 posted on 10/01/2002 7:11:18 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: xzins
Personally, I don't think the script is pre-written so it could never be changed.

Amen, Brother!

Of course you are right.

If not, this whole 'World' & 'Heaven' thing is a big waste of God's (and our) time!

197 posted on 10/01/2002 7:12:08 AM PDT by Elsie
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To: RochesterFan; PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
God is the sovereign ruler over all of the universe he made, including the hearts and will of men.

If this is absolutely true, then Mack cannot help but believe as he does, and you are wasting your time trying to convince him otherwise.

God is the sovereign ruler over all of the universe he made, including the hearts and will of men. That said, it is also true that God is good and not the author of sin. The two statements are not mutually exclusive and the Scriptures are not ashamed to proclaim both truths.

You cannot just declare them not to be mutually exclusive. If that is your position, then you need to explain how this can be so.

198 posted on 10/01/2002 7:13:22 AM PDT by malakhi
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To: xzins; SoothingDave
Rn is mischaracterizing the free choice (Arminian) position for effect....clear contrast. Actually we believe that man is dead from the fall. We believe not that he has enough spiritual life left to desire God, but that the Lord enlivens him to see the choice before him. In that momentarily enlivened/enlightened state he can see clearly to make a choice. (We call that prevenient grace....God's grace that comes before salvation.)

How close is this to the Catholic position that man's nature is fallen, but that he is not absolutely depraved?

199 posted on 10/01/2002 7:16:42 AM PDT by malakhi
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To: maestro; PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
"So then 'FAITH' cometh by hearing, and hearing 'BY' The WORD of GOD."

Agree with that 100%

So then everyone that hears the word instantly has a saving faith? Seems that something must distinguish between those that hear the word and are saved and those that hear the word and twist or ignore it ...So what is the difference?

200 posted on 10/01/2002 7:17:23 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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