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To: xzins; SoothingDave
Rn is mischaracterizing the free choice (Arminian) position for effect....clear contrast. Actually we believe that man is dead from the fall. We believe not that he has enough spiritual life left to desire God, but that the Lord enlivens him to see the choice before him. In that momentarily enlivened/enlightened state he can see clearly to make a choice. (We call that prevenient grace....God's grace that comes before salvation.)

How close is this to the Catholic position that man's nature is fallen, but that he is not absolutely depraved?

199 posted on 10/01/2002 7:16:42 AM PDT by malakhi
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To: angelo
Rn is mischaracterizing the free choice (Arminian) position for effect....clear contrast. Actually we believe that man is dead from the fall. We believe not that he has enough spiritual life left to desire God, but that the Lord enlivens him to see the choice before him. In that momentarily enlivened/enlightened state he can see clearly to make a choice. (We call that prevenient grace....God's grace that comes before salvation.)

How close is this to the Catholic position that man's nature is fallen, but that he is not absolutely depraved?

Pretty darn.

I would say that God gives each person a measure of grace sufficient for them to choose to come to God. Obviously, to some He gives more, but there is a minimum grant to everyone. And a sufficient grant it is.

So the "fault" for those who reject God rests with the person, not with God. God gave sufficiently, man rejected.

Contrast this with my impression of Calvinism, that God simply does not will the salvation of some and never gives them grace or "stirs" them or "regenerates" them or whatever. God simply does not desire them to be saved and that's the way it is and we are not to quesiton it.

SD

205 posted on 10/01/2002 7:23:14 AM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: angelo
We draw a distinction between "total" depravity and "ultimate" depravity.

In other words, not every "sinful" creature MUST behave like Jeffrey Dahmer or Adolf Hitler. Also, "total" being different from "ultimate" depravity allows for recognizing that, for example, the love of a mother for her children, is a positive residue that abides within us by the grace of God.

Perhaps what we mean by "ultimate" is the same as what you mean by "absolute." I would guess that it does.
207 posted on 10/01/2002 7:25:30 AM PDT by xzins
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