Spurgeon's View of the MILLENNIUM

Pilgrim Pub. ^ | MARK A. MCNEIL

[xzins]

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CONFUSED ABOUT SPURGEON'S PROPHETIC VIEWS?

— WELL, NO LONGER!  HERE IS...

. Charles Haddon Spurgeon's VIEW OF THE
MILLENNIUM
	Annotated Summary by
	MARK A. MCNEIL

"I am not now going into millennial theories, or into any speculation as to dates. I do not know anything at all about such things, and I am not sure that I am called to spend my time in such researches. I am rather called to minister the gospel than to open prophecy. Those who are wise in such things doubtless prize their wisdom, but I have not the time to acquire it, nor any inclination to leave soul-winning pursuits for less arousing themes. I believe it is a great deal better to leave many of these promises, and many of these gracious out-looks of believers, to exercise their full force upon our minds, without depriving them of their simple glory by aiming to discover dates and figures. Let this be settled, however, that if there be meaning in words, Israel is yet to be restored. Israel is to have a SPIRITUAL RESTORATION or a CONVERSION."

[from The Restoration & Conversion of the Jews MTP Vol 10, Year 1864, pg. 429, Ezekiel 37:1-10 (age 30)]

INTRODUCTION

There has been some considerable difference of opinion regarding the position that C. H. Spurgeon, the great Baptist preacher from the 19th century, held in the area of Eschatology — regarding the doctrine of the Millennium. Each of the three major divisions within this area of doctrine have proponents who claim Spurgeon as one of their own. Many times authors claim a different millennial view than what Spurgeon actually believed.

It is not our task to sort out the arguments for each view. Such an assignment would take a very large volume (many are available) and the issue would still not be solved for all. We would simply like to define the basic positions and then demonstrate from Spurgeon's own words which one view he held.

PREMILLENNIALISM

The first view regarding the Millennium is that of PREMILLENNIALISM. The prefix, "Pre," denotes "before." The prefix is telling us at what point in relationship to the millennium that Christ will come. This view holds that our Lord will Literally return before a 1,000-year reign of Christ begins. The millennium of Revelation 20 is taken to be literal. If not literal, it at least is speaking of an indefinite period of time following the coming of Christ during which there will be perfect peace on the earth.

Within the premillennialist camp, there have come to be two identifiable views: the "dispensationalist" position, and the "historic" position. For further information defending each of these views, one should consult Reese's The Approaching Advent of Christ [historic] and Dwight Pentecost's Things to Come [dispensational]. Though the differences between the two are important, it is not within the scope of our purpose here to delve into such matters.

AMILLENNIALISM

The second view is called AMILLENNIALISM, or sometimes called "realized eschatology". The prefix, "A-," means "no". This would suggest that those who hold this view do not believe in a millennium. This is somewhat misleading, however. This view is the the product of a consistent Spiritual interpretation of prophetic literature. To those, the millennium is not some future physical reign, but the present reign of Christ in the hearts of believers. The "millennium" is an indefinite period of time (the present age) after which Christ will physically return. Prophecy in the Church, by Oswald Allis, is a standard work for the amillennial position.

This is the position of the Roman Catholic Church, also many other Protestant denominations. It grew out of St. Augustine's spiritualizing of these issues in his writings, and the tendency of many early Christian writers to see the Church as the "new Israel" and therefore the recipient of the promises of the Old Testament for the Jewish nation. Those who hold this view do not speak of the millennium as a future happening.  It is, to them, a Present Reality.

POSTMILLENNIALISM

The third, and last, major view is that of POSTMILLENNIALISM. The prefix "Post" speaks of "after." This teaching promotes the view that the physical return of Christ will Follow an actual millennium. The influence of Christianity will over-take the world for an extended period of time, then Christ will return.

This view appears to be a mixture of the principles that work to produce the first two views. It is not consistently spiritual or literal in its interpretation of the prophetic material relevant to this issue. Perhaps the foremost writing for this position today is The Millennium, by Loraine Boettner.

Spurgeon's VIEW  

With basic definitions before us, then, let's look at some quotes from Spurgeon to see what his position was on the Millennium.

"If I read the word aright, and it is honest to admit that there is much room for difference of opinion here, the day will come, when the Lord Jesus will descend from heaven with a shout, with the trump of the archangel and the voice of God. Some think that this descent of the Lord will be Post-millennial — that is, 'after the thousand years' of his reign. I CANNOT THINK SO. I conceive that the advent will be PRE-millennial — that He will come first; and then will come the millennium as the result of his personal reign upon earth. But whether or no, this much is the fact, that Christ will suddenly come, come to reign, and come to judge the earth in righteousness." [from Justification & Glory MTP Vol 11, Year 1865, pg. 249, Romans 8:30 (age 31)]

Spurgeon here specifically identifies the Postmillennial view with a clear DENIAL of any adherence to it! Those who attempt to claim Spurgeon for this viewpoint do not demonstrate their contention by referring to clear comparisons such as this one. They rather go to sermons not specifically dealing with both positions and pull out of them ideas that are "compatible" with Postmillennial thinking. This is a faulty way of proving a point, however* — especially when they meet squarely with a Spurgeon statement like the one above, and those below.

*NOTE: Furthur, a few postmillennialists (especially GARY NORTH), are guilty of misrepresenting Spurgeon constantly in articles and books; NORTH has repeatedly alleged that "Spurgeon was Postmillennial" — yet neither his supplied quotations "say" so, and/or he deliberately does not present a statement by Spurgeon that North will speculate "implies" a Postmillennial position. Our advice is to ignore anything North states regarding Spurgeon's views and Prophecy!

Again, consider Spurgeon's View here in light of 'Postmillennial' teaching...

"Paul does not paint the future with rose-colour: he is no smooth-tongued prophet of a golden age, into which this dull earth may be imagined to be glowing. There are sanguine brethren who are looking forward to everything growing better and better and better, until, at last, this present age ripens into a millennium. They will not be able to sustain their hopes, for Scripture gives them no solid basis to rest upon. We who believe that there will be no millennial reign without the King, and who expect no rule of righteousness except from the appearing of the righteous Lord, are nearer the mark. Apart from the second Advent of our Lord, the world is more likely to sink into a pandemonium than to rise into a millennium. A divine interposition seems to me the hope set before us in Scripture, and, indeed, to be the only hope adequate to the occasion. We look to the darkening down of things; the state of mankind, however improved politically, may yet grow worse and worse spiritually." [from The Form of Godliness Without the Power MTP Vol 35, Year 1889, pg. 301, 2 Timothy 3:5 (age 54)]

"We are to expect the literal advent of Jesus Christ, for he himself by his angel told us, 'This same Jesus which is taken up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven,' which must mean literally and in person. We expect a reigning Christ on earth; that seems to us to be very plain, and to be put so literally that we dare not spiritualise it. We anticipate a first and a second resurrection; a first resurrection of the righteous, and a second resurrection of the ungodly, who shall be judged, condemned, and punished for ever by the sentence of the great King." [from Things to Come MTP Vol 15, Year 1869, pg. 329, 1 Corinthians 3:22 (age 35)]

Here, stress is laid upon the Literal Nature of the second coming.  Also, after this literal return is stressed a reigning upon the earth.

"We have done once for all with the foolish ideas of certain of the early heretics, that Christ's appearance upon earth was but a phantom. We know that he was really, personally, and physically here on earth. But it is not quite so clear to some persons that he is to come really, personally, and literally, the second time. I know there are some who are labouring to get rid of the fact of a personal reign, but as I take it, the coming and the reign are so connected together, that we must have a spiritual coming if we are to have a spiritual reign. Now we believe and hold that Christ shall come a second time suddenly, to raise his saints at the first judgment, and they shall reign with him afterwards. The rest of the dead live not till after the thousand years are finished. Then shall they rise from their tombs at the sounding of the trumpet, and their judgment shall come and they shall receive the deeds which they have done in their bodies." [from The Two Advents of Christ MTP Vol 8, Year 1862, pg. 39, Hebrews 9:27-28 (age 28)]

[from The Sinner's End MTP Vol 8, Year 1862, pgs. 712-713, Psalms 73:17-18 (age 28)], Spurgeon is discussing the final condition of the sinner — "Let us go on to consider their end. The day of days, that dreadful day has come. The millennial rest is over, the righteous have had their thousand years of glory upon earth."

In the quotes above, the order of events fits perfectly the PREmillennial point of view. The final end of the sinner is faced after the righteous have enjoyed a thousand years with Christ.

.
	"Our Hope is the Personal PRE-MILLENNIAL RETURN of the   Lord Jesus Christ in Glory."
	— August 1891, age 58

Of the various articles and writings by those who deny the conclusion that we feel is obvious, none that I have found bases itself on the same type of quotes we have produced (many others could have been given — see those that follow). To the contrary, their's are based on "interpreting" Spurgeon's statements apart from such quotes that we have given.

.

We feel safe in concluding, then,

that of the three views we began with,

Spurgeon expressly states that he believes in a

Literal Return of Jesus Christ

BEFORE

a Literal Millennium on the Earth.

———————————————————————————

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Written by Mark A. McNeil (Houston TX USA), B.A., M.A., & PhD. Student

Author of An Evaluation of the 'Oneness Pentecostal' Movement

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Watching and Waiting Magazine

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From the Summer 1990 issue of this magazine, C. W. H. Griffiths states Spurgeon "was a valued standard bearer for historic Pre-millennialism," and then presents an excellent article defending his Pre-millennial position.

Documenting additional quotations which we have added and expanded below —

Spurgeon (age 43) — There is moreover to be a reign of Christ. I cannot read the Scriptures without perceiving that there is to be a pre-millennial reign, as I believe, upon the earth and that there shall be new heavens and a new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness...

Spurgeon (age 49) — Then all His people who are alive at the time of His coming shall be suddenly transformed, so as to be delivered from all the frailties and imperfections of their mortal bodies: The dead shall be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed. Then we shall be presented spirit, soul, and body without spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; in the clear and absolute perfection of our sanctified manhood, presented unto Christ Himself.

Spurgeon (age 50) — When the Lord comes there will be no more death; we who are alive and remain (as some of us may be — we cannot tell) will undergo a sudden transformation — for flesh and blood, as they are, cannot inherit the kingdom of God — and by that transformation our bodies shall be made meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light.

Spurgeon (age 52) — His coming will cause great sorrow. What does the text say about his coming? All kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Then this sorrow will be very general.

Spurgeon (age 30) [from The Restoration & Conversion of the Jews MTP Vol 10, Year 1864, pgs. 427-430, Ezekiel  37:1-10] — Under the preaching of the Word the vilest sinners can be reclaimed, the most stubborn wills can be subdued, the most unholy lives can be sanctified. When the holy "breath" comes from the four winds, when the divine Spirit descends to own the Word, then multitudes of sinners, as on Pentecost's hallowed day, stand up upon their feet, an exceeding great army, to praise the Lord their God. But, mark you, this is not the first and proper interpretation of the text; it is indeed nothing more than a very striking parallel case to the one before us. It is not the case itself; it is only a similar one, for the way in which God restores a nation is, practically, the way in which he restores an individual. The way in which Israel shall be saved is the same by which any one individual sinner shall be saved. It is not, however, the one case which the prophet is aiming at; he is looking at the vast mass of cases, the multitudes of instances to be found among the Jewish people, of gracious quickening, and holy resurrection. His first and primary intention was to speak of them, and though it is right and lawful to take a passage in its widest possible meaning, since "no Scripture is of private interpretation," yet I hold it to be treason to God's Word to neglect its primary meaning, and constantly to say — "Such-and-such is the primary meaning, but it is of no consequence, and I shall use the words for another object." The preacher of God's truth should not give up the Holy Ghost's meaning; he should take care that he does not even put it in the back ground. The first meaning of a text, the Spirit's meaning, is that which would be brought out first, and though the rest may fairly spring out of it, yet the first sense should have the chief place. Let it have the uppermost place in the synagogue, let it be looked upon as at least not inferior, either in interest or importance, to any other meaning which may come out of the text.

The meaning of our text, as opened up by the context, is most evidently, if words mean anything, first, that there shall be a political restoration of the Jews to their own land and to their own nationality; and then, secondly, there is in the text, and in the context, a most plain declaration, that there shall be a spiritual restoration, a conversion in fact, of the tribes of Israel.

The promise is that they shall renounce their idols, and, behold, they have already done so. "Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols." Whatever faults the Jew may have besides, he certainly has no idolatry. "The Lord thy God is one God," is a truth far better conceived by the Jew than by any other man on earth except the Christian. Weaned for ever from the worship of all images, of whatever sort, the Jewish nation has now become infatuated with traditions or duped by philosophy. She is to have, however, instead of these delusions, a spiritual religion: she is to love her God. "They shall be my people, and I will be their God." The unseen but omnipotent Jehovah is to be worshipped in spirit and in truth by his ancient people; they are to come before him in his own appointed way, accepting the Mediator whom their sires rejected; coming into covenant relation with God, for so our text tells us — "I will make a covenant of peace with them," and Jesus is our peace, therefore we gather that Jehovah shall enter into the covenant of grace with them, that covenant of which Christ is the federal head, the substance, and the surety. They are to walk in God's ordinances and statutes, and so exhibit the practical effects of being united to Christ who hath given them peace. All these promises certainly imply that the people of Israel are to be converted to God, and that this conversion is to be permanent, for the tabernacle of God is to be with them, the Most High is, in an especial manner, to have his sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore; so that whatever nations may apostatize and turn from the Lord in these latter days, the nation of Israel never can, for she shall be effectually and permanently converted, the hearts of the fathers shall be turned with the hearts of the children unto the Lord their God, and they shall be the people of God, world without end.

We look forward, then, for these two things. I am not going to theorize upon which of them will come first, whether they shall be restored first, and converted afterwards, or converted first, and then restored. They are to be restored, and they are to be converted too. Let the Lord send these blessings in his own order, and we shall be well content whichever way they shall come. We take this for our joy and our comfort, that this thing shall be, and that both in the spiritual and in the temporal throne, the King Messiah shall sit, and reign among his people gloriously.

Spurgeon (age 30) [from The Lamb — the Light MTP Vol 10, Year 1864, pg. 439, Revelation 21:23] — (Spurgeon says of the millennial earth), They shall not say one to another, "Know the Lord: for all shall know him, from the least to the greatest." There may be even in that period certain solemn assemblies and Sabbath-days, but they will not be of the same kind as we have now; for the whole earth will be a temple, every day will be a Sabbath, the avocations of men will all be priestly, they shall be a nation of priests — distinctly so, and they shall day without night serve God in his temple, so that everything to which they set their hand shall be a part of the song which shall go up to the Most High. Oh! blessed day. Would God it had dawned, when these temples should be left, because the whole world should be a temple for God. But whatever may be the splendours of that day — and truly here is a temptation to let our imagination revel — however bright may be the walls set with chalcedony and amethyst, however splendid the gates which are of one pearl, whatever may be the magnificence set forth by the "streets of gold," this we know, that the sum and substance, the light and glory of the whole will be the person of our Lord Jesus Christ, "for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof." Now, I want the Christian to meditate over this. In the highest, holiest, and happiest era that shall ever dawn upon this poor earth, Christ is to be her light. When she puts on her wedding garments, and adorns herself as a bride is adorned with jewels, Christ is to be her glory and her beauty. There shall be no ear-rings in her ears made with other gold than that which cometh from his mine of love; there shall be no crown set upon her brow fashioned by any other hand than his hands of wisdom and of grace. She sits to reign, but it shall be upon his throne; she feeds, but it shall be upon his bread; she triumphs, but it shall be because of the might which ever belongs to him who is the Rock of Ages. Come then, Christian, contemplate for a moment thy beloved Lord. Jesus, in a millennial age, shall be the light and the glory of the city of the new Jerusalem. Observe then, that Jesus makes the light of the millennium, because his presence will be that which distinguishes that age from the present. That age is to be akin to paradise. Paradise God first made upon earth, and paradise God will last make. Satan destroyed it; and God will never have defeated his enemy until he has re-established paradise, until once again a new Eden shall bless the eyes of God's creatures. Now, the very glory and privilege of Eden I take to be not the river which flowed through it with its four branches, nor that it came from the land of Havilah which hath dust of gold — I do not think the glory of Eden lay in its grassy walks, or in the boughs bending with luscious fruit — but its glory lay in this, that the "Lord God walked in the garden in the cool of the day." Here was Adam's highest privilege, that he had companionship with the Most High. In those days angels sweetly sang that the tabernacle of God was with man, and that he did dwell amongst them. Brethren, the paradise which is to be regained for us will have this for its essential and distinguishing mark, that the Lord shall dwell amongst us. This is the name by which the city is to be called — Jehovah Shammah, the Lord is there. It is true we have the presence of Christ in the Church now — "Lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world." We have the promise of his constant indwelling: "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." But still that is vicariously by his Spirit, but soon he is to be personally with us. That very man who once died upon Calvary is to live here. He — that same Jesus — who was taken up from us, shall come in like manner as he was taken up from the gazers of Galilee. Rejoice, rejoice, beloved, that he comes, actually and really comes; and this shall be the joy of that age, that he is among his saints, and dwelleth in them, with them, and talketh and walketh in their midst.

"If I read the word aright, and it is honest to admit that there is much room for difference of opinion here, the day will come, when the Lord Jesus will descend from heaven with a shout, with the trump of the archangel and the voice of God. Some think that this descent of the Lord will be Post-millennial — that is, 'after the thousand years' of his reign. I CANNOT THINK SO. I conceive that the advent will be PRE-millennial — that He will come first; and then will come the millennium as the result of his personal reign upon earth. But whether or no, this much is the fact, that Christ will suddenly come, come to reign, and come to judge the earth in righteousness." [from Justification & Glory MTP Vol 11, Year 1865, pg. 249, Romans 8:30 (age 31)]

[Corin Stormhands]

[Jean Chauvin]

testy testy testy! LOL!

"Tell me again....where in the bible is the place it describes the "I ain't comin'" version of Jesus' Return that you amills are so proud of. "

Neither does the Bible explicitly tell us that there is no alien space ship coming for us and hiding behind the next comet, now does it!?!

Since a temporary millennial kingdom was never in the minds eye of the biblical authors, why would they need to make clear what was already clear?

Jean

[Jean Chauvin]

"Rev 5, Rev 20, and 1 Co 15"

Rev 5 speaks of Rev 22:5, not Rev 20:4

~BOOM~ (there goes that one)

Rev 20 never mentions a millennial reign on earth. Rev 20:6 tells us that those who "livED and reignED with Christ a thousand years "shall be priests of God and of Christ and shall reign with Him a thousand years". Obviously, this is refering to a different millenium.

~BOOM~ (there goes that one)

1 Corinthians 15 tells us that death will be destroyed at the time of Christ's second coming and the resurrection and when those alive will be changed. Your fictional (never mentioned in Scripture) "millennial kingdom on earth" has death occuring all through it which, obviously, is at odds with the teaching of 1 Corinthians 15.

~BOOM~ (there goes that one)

Yup, x. You've proved your case! LOL!

Jean

[xzins]

The amill "I ain't coming" version of christianity has no place to go in scripture, not because the apostles couldn't see it in their "mind's eye", but because they didn't believe it, or teach it, or write about it.....

The premill "He Shall Return" (Acts 1) version of Christianity has so many texts it's nigh onto impossible to put them on this page. I'm satisfied with Rev 5, Rev 19, Rev 20, Rev 21, 1 Co 15 version of the future.....and it is EXPLICITLY, OVERTLY premillennial.

[xzins]

Here is the correct (and Obvious) interpretation of Rev 5, 20, and 1 Co 15 -- again

Christ Reigning on the Earth for 1000 Years = Premillennism

Revelation 5:9-10	9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.	Christians Serving as Kings & PRIESTS who SHALL (FUTURE) reign with Christ on the EARTH
Revelation 20:4-5	4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.	Resurrected saints (along with those in fine linen Rev 19: 8, 14 same as Rev 5:10) REIGN with Christ a THOUSAND YEARS.
Revelation 20:6	6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.	Christians serving as priests reign with Christ a thousand years
Revelation 20:7-9	Revelation 20 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them..	After 1000 years those in Holy City ON EARTH are attacked but enemy is destroyed
Summary	100% Scripture from the Book of Revelation..	Irrefutable 1000 Year Reign of Christ on Earth. Christians serving as priests with Christ for 1000 years ON EARTH. This is the definition of Premillenialism. Anyone who says premillennialism is NOT a valid biblical position is unfair with SCRIPTURE.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Paul and The Time Span of the Millennial Kingdom in 1 Cor 15: 22-26

Text	Scripture	Associated Resurrection	Time
1 Co 15: 23a	23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits;	Jesus’ Own was the First Resurrection	Time Point: Resurrection Sunday, approx 33 AD
1 Co 15: 23b	23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.	Those who are Christ’s (those who are dead in Christ + the rapture of those who are alive …1Th4:16-17)	Time Point: At the 2nd Coming of Christ
1 Co 15: 24-26	24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.	The Remainder Resurrected at the End	TIME SPAN Beginning at THE RETURN "He MUST REIGN" UNTIL All enemies, INCLUDING DEATH, destroyed.

[Jean Chauvin]

Well then, let's have an answer...

How is it that the people who are alive in the body which John sees in Rev 20:4 are said to participate in the 'first resurrection' if this event is the resurrection of the ~DEAD~??????? How are people alive in the body supposed to experience the event of the Resurrecion of the Dead?????

Since pre-millennialism is so "explicit" in this text, I'd expect you to be able to answer this question. So far, other than trying to tell me what kind of body persons who are alive in the body at that time will possess (not my question), you've failed miserably.

How is it that Isaiah 65 (and the "millennial kingdom" you've 'found' in that passage) tells us that ~God's~ people will live only as long as trees, if God's people will live for ever during the millennium?????

If Pre-Millennialism is so "explicit" in the Scriptures, I'd expect you to have an answer, but so far, other than calling Isaiah 65:22 a "lie from the pit of hell" (that was a good one, x), you've avoided this one, too!

Jean

[xzins]

Actually, I called your belief that there would be "death" in the new heavens and new earth a "lie from the pit of hell."

You believe that in the brand new heavens and the brand new earth that death is gonna be a normal occurrence. The Ambassador said you do. You said you do.


If there's gonna be death there, why do you think God bothers to recreate? And, oh...btw....what do these folks DO that warrants the death penalty?

[Jean Chauvin]

I noticed your nice little chart failed to mention the verb tense change from vs 4 to vs 6. Of course, you don't have an answer for that! LOL!

Neither do you have 'proof' that 5:10 is speaking of 20:4 and only of 20:4. You're mere 'claim' of 'proof' doesn't cut it. You have to show this is only the case.

Of course, if you notice the fact that, according to John's vision, 20:6 is a future event to John's position in the vision and if you notice the fact that it meshes perfectly with 5:10, you will notice that 5:10 is indeed giving you a glimpse of the ~new~ Earthly reality described in 22:5!

Yup, x, Proof! LOL!

And your 'spin' of 1 Cor 15 is laughable just like your 'discovery' of the "millennial kingdom" in Isaiah 65 and your bastardization of 2 Peter 3.

1 Corinthians 15:24 concludes the resurrection with the ~FACT~ that the ~END~ is next. Not a "millennial kingdom"! The ~END~.

Furthermore, 1 Cor 15 tells us that 'death' will be destroyed at that resurrection, yet your "millennial kingdom" has death occurring thoughtout. This is contradictory. And again, I must point out that your insistance that Isaiah 65 is a description of the "millennial kingdom" (contrary to the explit reference to "The New Heavens and the New Earth") and your insistance that this must be interpreted literally requires us to conclude that ~God's~ people will live only as long as trees and then die. This is contradictory to the claim of Pre-Millennialists that there will be no death of ~God's~ people in the "millennial kingdom".

You really ought to be ashamed of yourself.

Jean

[theAmbassador]

I am in the 2 decades younger range. So, you are old enough to be my father.

[Jean Chauvin]

"Actually, I called your belief that there would be "death" in the new heavens and new earth a "lie from the pit of hell." "

Of course, I wasn't claiming that at all. I'm not suprised that you thought so. You have demonstrated a difficulty in reading comprehension before.

No, I said that a literal interpretation of that text would require ~you~ to conclude that ~God's~ people will live only as long as trees then die.

Of course, amillennialists (and myself) believe that there will be no death at all in the New Heavens and the New Earth. Because we understand the metaphors being used in Isaiah 65, we rightfully divide the scriptures to conclude that this passage is ~actually~ prophecying a New Heavens and New Earth will have no death at all!

Notice, btw, that our 'symbolic' interpretation leads to a literal and physical reality of no death during the New Heavens and the New Earth.

On the other hand, your insistance that we interpret this passage literally leads ~you~ (not me or theAmbassador) to the necessary conclusion that the "millennial kingdom" (which is no where mentioned in that passage but, apparantly, pops out of 'thin air') will have ~God's~ people living only as long as trees!

Furthermore, a stricly literal interpretion will render the any "millennial kingdom" useless. We won't remember it anyway (or anything else from the past, for that matter)! "17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind."

Yup, x! Proof indeed! LOL!

Jean

[Jean Chauvin]

"this passage is ~actually~ prophecying [that the] New Heavens and New Earth will have no death at all! "

Jean

[winstonchurchill]

I realize you are very serious about this, and feel very strongly that your method of approach is scriptural and accurate. Properly directed, that is a faultless approach, but in this case, you are needlessly antagonizing and belittling those who don't agree with you. I am not a scoffer. I do not scoff at what Peter said, or what any of the Word says. I desire to know the truth, and to grow in the truth. I ask God every day for wisdom and knowledge, and to better understand His Word. I believe He answers that prayer.

Well stated.

Ironically, this is one of those rare instances where I agree with the theological view which doc purports to defend. Unfortunately, his 'defense' is so bitter and obnoxious as to give the view a bad name.

I agree that Peter is attempting to give an overview -- as are, in my view, all the biblical writers. These elaborately detailed views of eschatology are 'castles in the air,' attempting a degree of foreknowledge and detail that neither God nor the human writers of Scripture intended.

Indeed, I think the important thrust of Peter's comments are (i) the temporal descriptions (which were common at the time) cannot be taken strictly and literally and (ii) the times and arrangements of the Lord's Coming are not for us to know.

I tend to avoid these threads on millenialism, because unlike the threads spreading the Calvinist construct, RCC error or Mormon fantasy, I do not think it essential to rebut. History has shown that these detailed predictions ebb and flow as they fail to occur.

I do think that they tend generally to encourage a 'retreat to the mountain and wait' mentality which is not healthy for Christians, but so many good brethren relish and enjoy the detailed architecture of these 'castles' that it is hard to deny them their diversion.

[xzins]

THE CHAUVIN SHUFFLE!!

[theAmbassador]

You believe that in the brand new heavens and the brand new earth that death is gonna be a normal occurrence. The Ambassador said you do. You said you do.

Incorrect. Your unBiblical literalist interpretation of Isaiah 65 demands that there is death among the saints on the New earth:

• Isaiah 65:22 As the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people.

The problem for you is that you called this interpretation a "lie from the pit of hell!" I agree as does every single Amillennial lurker out there. The literalist Premillennial interpretation of Isaiah 65:17-25 ~IS~ a LIE FROM THE PIT OF HELL.

However, if you concede that the Amillennialist is correct in maintaining that verse 22 is only a metaphorical reference to the tree of life and to Jesus for the length of days of the people of God, then you must also concede that the child dying at 100 is also metaphorical and your entire LIE FROM THE PIT OF HELL Premillennialist interpretation falls apart like a house of cards.

It really does take a spiritual bonehead to not at least recognize that the days of a tree in verse 22 is LITERALLY forever, no matter what your eschatology. The problem is that I meet far too many persons such as yourself who cling to their eschatology, even when it is exploding in their face.

---

Our Final Victory

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."

And that my friend, is the honest gospel truth.

However, you tell me that the Dead will be raised incorruptible when Christ returns to setup the Millennial kingdom on this corruptible earth. You must therefore accept that when this happens that "Death is swallowed up in victory." Unfortunately, you Premillennialists tell me that death will linger around for another 1000 years. And that ~IS~ a LIE FROM THE PIT OF HELL.

[White Mountain]

Your #2565 to M-PI: And we shall go forth and look upon the corpses of the men who have transgressed against Him. For their worm does not die, and their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to us. Will we not be moved to a greater sense of awareness of just how wonderful the unmerited grace of God really is when we see this? Shall we not rejoice to know that we are not the objects of God fierce wrath? Shall we not fall down and give God glory through praise and worship? Shall we not feel awe and wonder to simply know that the only difference between us and the reprobate is the free grace of God that He has in His sovereignty bestowed?

But maybe your hope is tragically misplaced, maybe your conversion is spurious, as you guys love to claim regarding any who disagree with you. As you guys say, were that to be unhappily the case, you would only get what you deserve.

You guys take too many pages from the Pharisees' playbook:

Luke 18:11,13,14
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

The difference between the faithful and the reprobate is that the faithful obey the Gospel -- faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, sincere repentance, baptism for the remission of sins, keeping the commandments, enduring in faith to the end, building Christlike character, living a life of service, doing what Jesus tells us to do, as the prophets teach us in the Scriptures.

Ephesians 2:8
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Romans 10:16
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

2 Thessalonians 1:8
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1 Peter 4:17
17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

The Lord gives us all the ability to repent, and offers His eternal opportunities to all, on condition of obedience to His Gospel: faith in Christ, repentance, etc.

God bless you!

[White Mountain]

Is any disagreement with you on the meaning of a particular verse a "lie from the pit of hell"?

Are you infallible? (No, you are not.) Lifted up in pride? (Sure looks like it.)

You are taking yet another page from the Pharisees' playbook.

Matthew 18:3-4
3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

[Matchett-PI]

"You guys take too many pages from the Pharisees' playbook"

You have no idea how funny it is to see legalists (that reject the sovereignty of God and think they can earn their salvation), write such words.

Are you a DemocRAT?

They are experts at accusing others of the very things they are doing.

Unfortunately, superficial ?thinkers? far out number the discerning / those capable of critical thought, so this gives you confidence in your ability to persuede. LOL

[CCWoody]

You guys take too many pages from the Pharisees' playbook:

Why don't we let the Calvinists here decide if theAmbassador's comment is more like a Pharisee or a Publican.

BTW, it is rude to not introduce yourself when attacking someone. Why don't you tell him that you are a Mormon bishop?

[RnMomof7]

Are you a DemocRAT?

Mormon

[theAmbassador]

Why don't you tell him that you are a Mormon bishop?

I don't know if I should be honored or not that Satan would send as a messenger an overseer of his church to buffet me. Evidently, he is a little concerned at how effective we have been in our eschatology discussion and has decided to try and disrupt it a little.

Let the shenanigans begin.