Posted on 09/12/2002 7:19:20 AM PDT by xzins
"Tell me again....where in the bible is the place it describes the "I ain't comin'" version of Jesus' Return that you amills are so proud of. "
Neither does the Bible explicitly tell us that there is no alien space ship coming for us and hiding behind the next comet, now does it!?!
Since a temporary millennial kingdom was never in the minds eye of the biblical authors, why would they need to make clear what was already clear?
Jean
Rev 5 speaks of Rev 22:5, not Rev 20:4
~BOOM~ (there goes that one)
Rev 20 never mentions a millennial reign on earth. Rev 20:6 tells us that those who "livED and reignED with Christ a thousand years "shall be priests of God and of Christ and shall reign with Him a thousand years". Obviously, this is refering to a different millenium.
~BOOM~ (there goes that one)
1 Corinthians 15 tells us that death will be destroyed at the time of Christ's second coming and the resurrection and when those alive will be changed. Your fictional (never mentioned in Scripture) "millennial kingdom on earth" has death occuring all through it which, obviously, is at odds with the teaching of 1 Corinthians 15.
~BOOM~ (there goes that one)
Yup, x. You've proved your case! LOL!
Jean
| Revelation 5:9-10 | 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. | Christians Serving as Kings & PRIESTS who SHALL (FUTURE) reign with Christ on the EARTH |
| Revelation 20:4-5 | 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. | Resurrected saints (along with those in fine linen Rev 19: 8, 14 same as Rev 5:10) REIGN with Christ a THOUSAND YEARS. |
| Revelation 20:6 | 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. | Christians serving as priests reign with Christ a thousand years |
| Revelation 20:7-9 | Revelation 20 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.. | After 1000 years those in Holy City ON EARTH are attacked but enemy is destroyed |
| Summary | 100% Scripture from the Book of Revelation.. | Irrefutable 1000 Year Reign of Christ on Earth. Christians serving as priests with Christ for 1000 years ON EARTH. This is the definition of Premillenialism. Anyone who says premillennialism is NOT a valid biblical position is unfair with SCRIPTURE. |
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
| Text | Scripture | Associated Resurrection | Time |
| 1 Co 15: 23a | 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; | Jesus’ Own was the First Resurrection | Time Point: Resurrection Sunday, approx 33 AD |
| 1 Co 15: 23b | 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. | Those who are Christ’s (those who are dead in Christ + the rapture of those who are alive …1Th4:16-17) | Time Point: At the 2nd Coming of Christ |
| 1 Co 15: 24-26 | 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. | The Remainder Resurrected at the End | TIME SPAN Beginning at THE RETURN "He MUST REIGN" UNTIL All enemies, INCLUDING DEATH, destroyed. |
How is it that the people who are alive in the body which John sees in Rev 20:4 are said to participate in the 'first resurrection' if this event is the resurrection of the ~DEAD~??????? How are people alive in the body supposed to experience the event of the Resurrecion of the Dead?????
Since pre-millennialism is so "explicit" in this text, I'd expect you to be able to answer this question. So far, other than trying to tell me what kind of body persons who are alive in the body at that time will possess (not my question), you've failed miserably.
How is it that Isaiah 65 (and the "millennial kingdom" you've 'found' in that passage) tells us that ~God's~ people will live only as long as trees, if God's people will live for ever during the millennium?????
If Pre-Millennialism is so "explicit" in the Scriptures, I'd expect you to have an answer, but so far, other than calling Isaiah 65:22 a "lie from the pit of hell" (that was a good one, x), you've avoided this one, too!
Jean
Neither do you have 'proof' that 5:10 is speaking of 20:4 and only of 20:4. You're mere 'claim' of 'proof' doesn't cut it. You have to show this is only the case.
Of course, if you notice the fact that, according to John's vision, 20:6 is a future event to John's position in the vision and if you notice the fact that it meshes perfectly with 5:10, you will notice that 5:10 is indeed giving you a glimpse of the ~new~ Earthly reality described in 22:5!
Yup, x, Proof! LOL!
And your 'spin' of 1 Cor 15 is laughable just like your 'discovery' of the "millennial kingdom" in Isaiah 65 and your bastardization of 2 Peter 3.
1 Corinthians 15:24 concludes the resurrection with the ~FACT~ that the ~END~ is next. Not a "millennial kingdom"! The ~END~.
Furthermore, 1 Cor 15 tells us that 'death' will be destroyed at that resurrection, yet your "millennial kingdom" has death occurring thoughtout. This is contradictory. And again, I must point out that your insistance that Isaiah 65 is a description of the "millennial kingdom" (contrary to the explit reference to "The New Heavens and the New Earth") and your insistance that this must be interpreted literally requires us to conclude that ~God's~ people will live only as long as trees and then die. This is contradictory to the claim of Pre-Millennialists that there will be no death of ~God's~ people in the "millennial kingdom".
You really ought to be ashamed of yourself.
Jean
Of course, I wasn't claiming that at all. I'm not suprised that you thought so. You have demonstrated a difficulty in reading comprehension before.
No, I said that a literal interpretation of that text would require ~you~ to conclude that ~God's~ people will live only as long as trees then die.
Of course, amillennialists (and myself) believe that there will be no death at all in the New Heavens and the New Earth. Because we understand the metaphors being used in Isaiah 65, we rightfully divide the scriptures to conclude that this passage is ~actually~ prophecying a New Heavens and New Earth will have no death at all!
Notice, btw, that our 'symbolic' interpretation leads to a literal and physical reality of no death during the New Heavens and the New Earth.
On the other hand, your insistance that we interpret this passage literally leads ~you~ (not me or theAmbassador) to the necessary conclusion that the "millennial kingdom" (which is no where mentioned in that passage but, apparantly, pops out of 'thin air') will have ~God's~ people living only as long as trees!
Furthermore, a stricly literal interpretion will render the any "millennial kingdom" useless. We won't remember it anyway (or anything else from the past, for that matter)! "17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind."
Yup, x! Proof indeed! LOL!
Jean
Jean
Well stated.
Ironically, this is one of those rare instances where I agree with the theological view which doc purports to defend. Unfortunately, his 'defense' is so bitter and obnoxious as to give the view a bad name.
I agree that Peter is attempting to give an overview -- as are, in my view, all the biblical writers. These elaborately detailed views of eschatology are 'castles in the air,' attempting a degree of foreknowledge and detail that neither God nor the human writers of Scripture intended.
Indeed, I think the important thrust of Peter's comments are (i) the temporal descriptions (which were common at the time) cannot be taken strictly and literally and (ii) the times and arrangements of the Lord's Coming are not for us to know.
I tend to avoid these threads on millenialism, because unlike the threads spreading the Calvinist construct, RCC error or Mormon fantasy, I do not think it essential to rebut. History has shown that these detailed predictions ebb and flow as they fail to occur.
I do think that they tend generally to encourage a 'retreat to the mountain and wait' mentality which is not healthy for Christians, but so many good brethren relish and enjoy the detailed architecture of these 'castles' that it is hard to deny them their diversion.
THE CHAUVIN SHUFFLE!!
But maybe your hope is tragically misplaced, maybe your conversion is spurious, as you guys love to claim regarding any who disagree with you. As you guys say, were that to be unhappily the case, you would only get what you deserve.
You guys take too many pages from the Pharisees' playbook:
Luke 18:11,13,14
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
The difference between the faithful and the reprobate is that the faithful obey the Gospel -- faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, sincere repentance, baptism for the remission of sins, keeping the commandments, enduring in faith to the end, building Christlike character, living a life of service, doing what Jesus tells us to do, as the prophets teach us in the Scriptures.
Ephesians 2:8
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Romans 10:16
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
2 Thessalonians 1:8
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1 Peter 4:17
17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
The Lord gives us all the ability to repent, and offers His eternal opportunities to all, on condition of obedience to His Gospel: faith in Christ, repentance, etc.
God bless you!
Are you infallible? (No, you are not.) Lifted up in pride? (Sure looks like it.)
You are taking yet another page from the Pharisees' playbook.
Matthew 18:3-4
3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
You have no idea how funny it is to see legalists (that reject the sovereignty of God and think they can earn their salvation), write such words.
Are you a DemocRAT?
They are experts at accusing others of the very things they are doing.
Unfortunately, superficial ?thinkers? far out number the discerning / those capable of critical thought, so this gives you confidence in your ability to persuede. LOL
Mormon
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.