Spurgeon's View of the MILLENNIUM

Pilgrim Pub. ^ | MARK A. MCNEIL

[xzins]

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CONFUSED ABOUT SPURGEON'S PROPHETIC VIEWS?

— WELL, NO LONGER!  HERE IS...

. Charles Haddon Spurgeon's VIEW OF THE
MILLENNIUM
	Annotated Summary by
	MARK A. MCNEIL

"I am not now going into millennial theories, or into any speculation as to dates. I do not know anything at all about such things, and I am not sure that I am called to spend my time in such researches. I am rather called to minister the gospel than to open prophecy. Those who are wise in such things doubtless prize their wisdom, but I have not the time to acquire it, nor any inclination to leave soul-winning pursuits for less arousing themes. I believe it is a great deal better to leave many of these promises, and many of these gracious out-looks of believers, to exercise their full force upon our minds, without depriving them of their simple glory by aiming to discover dates and figures. Let this be settled, however, that if there be meaning in words, Israel is yet to be restored. Israel is to have a SPIRITUAL RESTORATION or a CONVERSION."

[from The Restoration & Conversion of the Jews MTP Vol 10, Year 1864, pg. 429, Ezekiel 37:1-10 (age 30)]

INTRODUCTION

There has been some considerable difference of opinion regarding the position that C. H. Spurgeon, the great Baptist preacher from the 19th century, held in the area of Eschatology — regarding the doctrine of the Millennium. Each of the three major divisions within this area of doctrine have proponents who claim Spurgeon as one of their own. Many times authors claim a different millennial view than what Spurgeon actually believed.

It is not our task to sort out the arguments for each view. Such an assignment would take a very large volume (many are available) and the issue would still not be solved for all. We would simply like to define the basic positions and then demonstrate from Spurgeon's own words which one view he held.

PREMILLENNIALISM

The first view regarding the Millennium is that of PREMILLENNIALISM. The prefix, "Pre," denotes "before." The prefix is telling us at what point in relationship to the millennium that Christ will come. This view holds that our Lord will Literally return before a 1,000-year reign of Christ begins. The millennium of Revelation 20 is taken to be literal. If not literal, it at least is speaking of an indefinite period of time following the coming of Christ during which there will be perfect peace on the earth.

Within the premillennialist camp, there have come to be two identifiable views: the "dispensationalist" position, and the "historic" position. For further information defending each of these views, one should consult Reese's The Approaching Advent of Christ [historic] and Dwight Pentecost's Things to Come [dispensational]. Though the differences between the two are important, it is not within the scope of our purpose here to delve into such matters.

AMILLENNIALISM

The second view is called AMILLENNIALISM, or sometimes called "realized eschatology". The prefix, "A-," means "no". This would suggest that those who hold this view do not believe in a millennium. This is somewhat misleading, however. This view is the the product of a consistent Spiritual interpretation of prophetic literature. To those, the millennium is not some future physical reign, but the present reign of Christ in the hearts of believers. The "millennium" is an indefinite period of time (the present age) after which Christ will physically return. Prophecy in the Church, by Oswald Allis, is a standard work for the amillennial position.

This is the position of the Roman Catholic Church, also many other Protestant denominations. It grew out of St. Augustine's spiritualizing of these issues in his writings, and the tendency of many early Christian writers to see the Church as the "new Israel" and therefore the recipient of the promises of the Old Testament for the Jewish nation. Those who hold this view do not speak of the millennium as a future happening.  It is, to them, a Present Reality.

POSTMILLENNIALISM

The third, and last, major view is that of POSTMILLENNIALISM. The prefix "Post" speaks of "after." This teaching promotes the view that the physical return of Christ will Follow an actual millennium. The influence of Christianity will over-take the world for an extended period of time, then Christ will return.

This view appears to be a mixture of the principles that work to produce the first two views. It is not consistently spiritual or literal in its interpretation of the prophetic material relevant to this issue. Perhaps the foremost writing for this position today is The Millennium, by Loraine Boettner.

Spurgeon's VIEW  

With basic definitions before us, then, let's look at some quotes from Spurgeon to see what his position was on the Millennium.

"If I read the word aright, and it is honest to admit that there is much room for difference of opinion here, the day will come, when the Lord Jesus will descend from heaven with a shout, with the trump of the archangel and the voice of God. Some think that this descent of the Lord will be Post-millennial — that is, 'after the thousand years' of his reign. I CANNOT THINK SO. I conceive that the advent will be PRE-millennial — that He will come first; and then will come the millennium as the result of his personal reign upon earth. But whether or no, this much is the fact, that Christ will suddenly come, come to reign, and come to judge the earth in righteousness." [from Justification & Glory MTP Vol 11, Year 1865, pg. 249, Romans 8:30 (age 31)]

Spurgeon here specifically identifies the Postmillennial view with a clear DENIAL of any adherence to it! Those who attempt to claim Spurgeon for this viewpoint do not demonstrate their contention by referring to clear comparisons such as this one. They rather go to sermons not specifically dealing with both positions and pull out of them ideas that are "compatible" with Postmillennial thinking. This is a faulty way of proving a point, however* — especially when they meet squarely with a Spurgeon statement like the one above, and those below.

*NOTE: Furthur, a few postmillennialists (especially GARY NORTH), are guilty of misrepresenting Spurgeon constantly in articles and books; NORTH has repeatedly alleged that "Spurgeon was Postmillennial" — yet neither his supplied quotations "say" so, and/or he deliberately does not present a statement by Spurgeon that North will speculate "implies" a Postmillennial position. Our advice is to ignore anything North states regarding Spurgeon's views and Prophecy!

Again, consider Spurgeon's View here in light of 'Postmillennial' teaching...

"Paul does not paint the future with rose-colour: he is no smooth-tongued prophet of a golden age, into which this dull earth may be imagined to be glowing. There are sanguine brethren who are looking forward to everything growing better and better and better, until, at last, this present age ripens into a millennium. They will not be able to sustain their hopes, for Scripture gives them no solid basis to rest upon. We who believe that there will be no millennial reign without the King, and who expect no rule of righteousness except from the appearing of the righteous Lord, are nearer the mark. Apart from the second Advent of our Lord, the world is more likely to sink into a pandemonium than to rise into a millennium. A divine interposition seems to me the hope set before us in Scripture, and, indeed, to be the only hope adequate to the occasion. We look to the darkening down of things; the state of mankind, however improved politically, may yet grow worse and worse spiritually." [from The Form of Godliness Without the Power MTP Vol 35, Year 1889, pg. 301, 2 Timothy 3:5 (age 54)]

"We are to expect the literal advent of Jesus Christ, for he himself by his angel told us, 'This same Jesus which is taken up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven,' which must mean literally and in person. We expect a reigning Christ on earth; that seems to us to be very plain, and to be put so literally that we dare not spiritualise it. We anticipate a first and a second resurrection; a first resurrection of the righteous, and a second resurrection of the ungodly, who shall be judged, condemned, and punished for ever by the sentence of the great King." [from Things to Come MTP Vol 15, Year 1869, pg. 329, 1 Corinthians 3:22 (age 35)]

Here, stress is laid upon the Literal Nature of the second coming.  Also, after this literal return is stressed a reigning upon the earth.

"We have done once for all with the foolish ideas of certain of the early heretics, that Christ's appearance upon earth was but a phantom. We know that he was really, personally, and physically here on earth. But it is not quite so clear to some persons that he is to come really, personally, and literally, the second time. I know there are some who are labouring to get rid of the fact of a personal reign, but as I take it, the coming and the reign are so connected together, that we must have a spiritual coming if we are to have a spiritual reign. Now we believe and hold that Christ shall come a second time suddenly, to raise his saints at the first judgment, and they shall reign with him afterwards. The rest of the dead live not till after the thousand years are finished. Then shall they rise from their tombs at the sounding of the trumpet, and their judgment shall come and they shall receive the deeds which they have done in their bodies." [from The Two Advents of Christ MTP Vol 8, Year 1862, pg. 39, Hebrews 9:27-28 (age 28)]

[from The Sinner's End MTP Vol 8, Year 1862, pgs. 712-713, Psalms 73:17-18 (age 28)], Spurgeon is discussing the final condition of the sinner — "Let us go on to consider their end. The day of days, that dreadful day has come. The millennial rest is over, the righteous have had their thousand years of glory upon earth."

In the quotes above, the order of events fits perfectly the PREmillennial point of view. The final end of the sinner is faced after the righteous have enjoyed a thousand years with Christ.

.
	"Our Hope is the Personal PRE-MILLENNIAL RETURN of the   Lord Jesus Christ in Glory."
	— August 1891, age 58

Of the various articles and writings by those who deny the conclusion that we feel is obvious, none that I have found bases itself on the same type of quotes we have produced (many others could have been given — see those that follow). To the contrary, their's are based on "interpreting" Spurgeon's statements apart from such quotes that we have given.

.

We feel safe in concluding, then,

that of the three views we began with,

Spurgeon expressly states that he believes in a

Literal Return of Jesus Christ

BEFORE

a Literal Millennium on the Earth.

———————————————————————————

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Written by Mark A. McNeil (Houston TX USA), B.A., M.A., & PhD. Student

Author of An Evaluation of the 'Oneness Pentecostal' Movement

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Watching and Waiting Magazine

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From the Summer 1990 issue of this magazine, C. W. H. Griffiths states Spurgeon "was a valued standard bearer for historic Pre-millennialism," and then presents an excellent article defending his Pre-millennial position.

Documenting additional quotations which we have added and expanded below —

Spurgeon (age 43) — There is moreover to be a reign of Christ. I cannot read the Scriptures without perceiving that there is to be a pre-millennial reign, as I believe, upon the earth and that there shall be new heavens and a new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness...

Spurgeon (age 49) — Then all His people who are alive at the time of His coming shall be suddenly transformed, so as to be delivered from all the frailties and imperfections of their mortal bodies: The dead shall be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed. Then we shall be presented spirit, soul, and body without spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; in the clear and absolute perfection of our sanctified manhood, presented unto Christ Himself.

Spurgeon (age 50) — When the Lord comes there will be no more death; we who are alive and remain (as some of us may be — we cannot tell) will undergo a sudden transformation — for flesh and blood, as they are, cannot inherit the kingdom of God — and by that transformation our bodies shall be made meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light.

Spurgeon (age 52) — His coming will cause great sorrow. What does the text say about his coming? All kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Then this sorrow will be very general.

Spurgeon (age 30) [from The Restoration & Conversion of the Jews MTP Vol 10, Year 1864, pgs. 427-430, Ezekiel  37:1-10] — Under the preaching of the Word the vilest sinners can be reclaimed, the most stubborn wills can be subdued, the most unholy lives can be sanctified. When the holy "breath" comes from the four winds, when the divine Spirit descends to own the Word, then multitudes of sinners, as on Pentecost's hallowed day, stand up upon their feet, an exceeding great army, to praise the Lord their God. But, mark you, this is not the first and proper interpretation of the text; it is indeed nothing more than a very striking parallel case to the one before us. It is not the case itself; it is only a similar one, for the way in which God restores a nation is, practically, the way in which he restores an individual. The way in which Israel shall be saved is the same by which any one individual sinner shall be saved. It is not, however, the one case which the prophet is aiming at; he is looking at the vast mass of cases, the multitudes of instances to be found among the Jewish people, of gracious quickening, and holy resurrection. His first and primary intention was to speak of them, and though it is right and lawful to take a passage in its widest possible meaning, since "no Scripture is of private interpretation," yet I hold it to be treason to God's Word to neglect its primary meaning, and constantly to say — "Such-and-such is the primary meaning, but it is of no consequence, and I shall use the words for another object." The preacher of God's truth should not give up the Holy Ghost's meaning; he should take care that he does not even put it in the back ground. The first meaning of a text, the Spirit's meaning, is that which would be brought out first, and though the rest may fairly spring out of it, yet the first sense should have the chief place. Let it have the uppermost place in the synagogue, let it be looked upon as at least not inferior, either in interest or importance, to any other meaning which may come out of the text.

The meaning of our text, as opened up by the context, is most evidently, if words mean anything, first, that there shall be a political restoration of the Jews to their own land and to their own nationality; and then, secondly, there is in the text, and in the context, a most plain declaration, that there shall be a spiritual restoration, a conversion in fact, of the tribes of Israel.

The promise is that they shall renounce their idols, and, behold, they have already done so. "Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols." Whatever faults the Jew may have besides, he certainly has no idolatry. "The Lord thy God is one God," is a truth far better conceived by the Jew than by any other man on earth except the Christian. Weaned for ever from the worship of all images, of whatever sort, the Jewish nation has now become infatuated with traditions or duped by philosophy. She is to have, however, instead of these delusions, a spiritual religion: she is to love her God. "They shall be my people, and I will be their God." The unseen but omnipotent Jehovah is to be worshipped in spirit and in truth by his ancient people; they are to come before him in his own appointed way, accepting the Mediator whom their sires rejected; coming into covenant relation with God, for so our text tells us — "I will make a covenant of peace with them," and Jesus is our peace, therefore we gather that Jehovah shall enter into the covenant of grace with them, that covenant of which Christ is the federal head, the substance, and the surety. They are to walk in God's ordinances and statutes, and so exhibit the practical effects of being united to Christ who hath given them peace. All these promises certainly imply that the people of Israel are to be converted to God, and that this conversion is to be permanent, for the tabernacle of God is to be with them, the Most High is, in an especial manner, to have his sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore; so that whatever nations may apostatize and turn from the Lord in these latter days, the nation of Israel never can, for she shall be effectually and permanently converted, the hearts of the fathers shall be turned with the hearts of the children unto the Lord their God, and they shall be the people of God, world without end.

We look forward, then, for these two things. I am not going to theorize upon which of them will come first, whether they shall be restored first, and converted afterwards, or converted first, and then restored. They are to be restored, and they are to be converted too. Let the Lord send these blessings in his own order, and we shall be well content whichever way they shall come. We take this for our joy and our comfort, that this thing shall be, and that both in the spiritual and in the temporal throne, the King Messiah shall sit, and reign among his people gloriously.

Spurgeon (age 30) [from The Lamb — the Light MTP Vol 10, Year 1864, pg. 439, Revelation 21:23] — (Spurgeon says of the millennial earth), They shall not say one to another, "Know the Lord: for all shall know him, from the least to the greatest." There may be even in that period certain solemn assemblies and Sabbath-days, but they will not be of the same kind as we have now; for the whole earth will be a temple, every day will be a Sabbath, the avocations of men will all be priestly, they shall be a nation of priests — distinctly so, and they shall day without night serve God in his temple, so that everything to which they set their hand shall be a part of the song which shall go up to the Most High. Oh! blessed day. Would God it had dawned, when these temples should be left, because the whole world should be a temple for God. But whatever may be the splendours of that day — and truly here is a temptation to let our imagination revel — however bright may be the walls set with chalcedony and amethyst, however splendid the gates which are of one pearl, whatever may be the magnificence set forth by the "streets of gold," this we know, that the sum and substance, the light and glory of the whole will be the person of our Lord Jesus Christ, "for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof." Now, I want the Christian to meditate over this. In the highest, holiest, and happiest era that shall ever dawn upon this poor earth, Christ is to be her light. When she puts on her wedding garments, and adorns herself as a bride is adorned with jewels, Christ is to be her glory and her beauty. There shall be no ear-rings in her ears made with other gold than that which cometh from his mine of love; there shall be no crown set upon her brow fashioned by any other hand than his hands of wisdom and of grace. She sits to reign, but it shall be upon his throne; she feeds, but it shall be upon his bread; she triumphs, but it shall be because of the might which ever belongs to him who is the Rock of Ages. Come then, Christian, contemplate for a moment thy beloved Lord. Jesus, in a millennial age, shall be the light and the glory of the city of the new Jerusalem. Observe then, that Jesus makes the light of the millennium, because his presence will be that which distinguishes that age from the present. That age is to be akin to paradise. Paradise God first made upon earth, and paradise God will last make. Satan destroyed it; and God will never have defeated his enemy until he has re-established paradise, until once again a new Eden shall bless the eyes of God's creatures. Now, the very glory and privilege of Eden I take to be not the river which flowed through it with its four branches, nor that it came from the land of Havilah which hath dust of gold — I do not think the glory of Eden lay in its grassy walks, or in the boughs bending with luscious fruit — but its glory lay in this, that the "Lord God walked in the garden in the cool of the day." Here was Adam's highest privilege, that he had companionship with the Most High. In those days angels sweetly sang that the tabernacle of God was with man, and that he did dwell amongst them. Brethren, the paradise which is to be regained for us will have this for its essential and distinguishing mark, that the Lord shall dwell amongst us. This is the name by which the city is to be called — Jehovah Shammah, the Lord is there. It is true we have the presence of Christ in the Church now — "Lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world." We have the promise of his constant indwelling: "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." But still that is vicariously by his Spirit, but soon he is to be personally with us. That very man who once died upon Calvary is to live here. He — that same Jesus — who was taken up from us, shall come in like manner as he was taken up from the gazers of Galilee. Rejoice, rejoice, beloved, that he comes, actually and really comes; and this shall be the joy of that age, that he is among his saints, and dwelleth in them, with them, and talketh and walketh in their midst.

"If I read the word aright, and it is honest to admit that there is much room for difference of opinion here, the day will come, when the Lord Jesus will descend from heaven with a shout, with the trump of the archangel and the voice of God. Some think that this descent of the Lord will be Post-millennial — that is, 'after the thousand years' of his reign. I CANNOT THINK SO. I conceive that the advent will be PRE-millennial — that He will come first; and then will come the millennium as the result of his personal reign upon earth. But whether or no, this much is the fact, that Christ will suddenly come, come to reign, and come to judge the earth in righteousness." [from Justification & Glory MTP Vol 11, Year 1865, pg. 249, Romans 8:30 (age 31)]

[xzins]

Somehow you believe that the Lord is incapable of telling his own story seeing that he's present during the millennium. Jesus told Thomas, "blessed are those who see and believe; more blessed are those who do not see and yet believer." This millennial world will be a world of those who get to "see and believe."

I can see you have no case in terms of scripture. I thought so. There is nothing that explains an amillennial view of scripture anywhere in scripture. There is a lot for premillennialism. I invite everyone to #2501 and #2495.

[RnMomof7]

OK

[RnMomof7]

Those who are in unresurrected form on the earth will be the fertile ones having babies. According to the pretribs that will be living tribulation believers and tribulation Jews who miss the rapture but who become believers. According to the posttribs that will be those who are alive, not having been part of the armies of opposition, they will be ruled with a rod of iron. I imagine many will respond to the Lord in faith.

Doesn't scripture say we will be changed when we see him?

1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

[RnMomof7]

All peoples of all times so far have had the requirement to turn to the Lord in faith. Why would it be any different for humans in the millennial kingdom?

So in effect the millennial reign will be just like now? ohhhhhhhhh I don't know about that

point on having babies and the word needing to be preached in the 1000 goes to the amils xzins

[RnMomof7]

Somehow you believe that the Lord is incapable of telling his own story seeing that he's present during the millennium.

The King of Kings is present and ruling in righteouness and the devil is bound and He needs to convince people ??I keep moving closer to the amil the more I read on this zxins

[xzins]

Rn, the issue is the scripture of Rev 5, Rev 20, and 1 Co 15. They say there's a 1000 year reign of Christ on earth after his return. We can like that or not like that, but it's still the bible. There are different groups of people for you to keep track of because things are different than now. 1. Those who have been resurrected or translated.
2. Those who are living on the earth at Christ's return.
3. Those who are born on earth after Christ's return.

NOW go to Isaiah 65:19-20. It says 19 "I will also (45) rejoice in Jerusalem and be glad in My people; And there will no longer be heard in her The voice of (46) weeping and the sound of crying. 20 "No longer will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, Or an old man who does (47) not live out his days; For the youth will die at the age of one hundred And the (48) one who does not reach the age of one hundred Will be thought accursed.

You have 3 and only 3 choices in placing that scripture in its proper time context.

1. It is NOW before the Return of Christ.
2. It is in the New Heavens and the New Earth (it doesn't matter whether the NHNE of the amillennialists or premillennialists.)
3. It is in the millennial reign of the premillennialists.

It speaks of youths dying. It speaks of old men dying. One who dies at 100 will be considered a youth. Old men, it says, will live out their age.

Now, where does it fit? Where? You have only 3 choices: Now, NHNE, Millennium.

1. Do you think that NOW we have people living well past 100? Are there any you know who consider a 100 year old to be a "youth?" No. It clearly isn't NOW, is it?

2. Is it the New Heaven and the New Earth? If it is then there is death there. But the bible says "there is no more death" doesn't it? Or are you going to have death in the NHNE? If so, then you might as well work through the scriptural problems of the millennium because You're gonna start asking yourself who these folks are and why they're having babies and why they're dying in the NHNE.

3. Is it the millennial reign? Well, if I had to pick a place, I'd pick this place. There are people living there who were not resurrected or raptured. But there's no verse that says there's NO DEATH. Instead, there are verses like 1 Co 15 that say Christ must reign until all enemies are put down....the LAST enemy to be destroyed is death.

So, takes your picks. No matter which one you pick you get to work on the scriptural difficulties. My difficulties involve organizing sequence. Their difficulties involve "what am I gonna symbolize now to make this make even a modicum of sense?" I know, we'll symbolize Satan in the now and say he has no power. I know we'll symbolize new meanings for death and life in the NHNE or in the NOW.

If that trips your switch, then welcome to rendering the bible one big trip of symbols.

So, then, if I symbolize his reign on earth WHY can't I symbolize His return? What rule says I can't? If I can do the one why can't I do the other? Why can't I symbolize the entire NHNE? The New Jerusalem? The Streets of Gold? The Tree of Life?

Why not symbolize the resurrection along with the liberals?

[BlackElk]

I am Catholic. We believe that we will not know the time, the day, the hour of his coming, as Jesus told us in Scripture. I believe that His Second Coming may well be at hand but how would I know? We ought live our lives as though it will not be in our lifetimes and yet be prepared in our souls for the possibility that it will be ten minutes or one minute from now. Whether He will preside over a Millenium on earth or not I do not know and I don't have to know. All I need to know is that He IS coming and that He will fulfill each and every promise and that under His leadership, we will share the promised final victory over Lucifer.

By way of an analogy of sorts, I know that demonic possession is allowed by the Lord for whatever His reasons may be. My instinct is that it is not healthy to dwell on possession lest one inadvertently invite it. I would not handle or allow a Ouija Board to be handled by anyone in my family or Tarot Cards or other things that not only violate the First Commandment but also invite possession.

I need to dwell on my own sinfulness more and to dwell on the sinfulness of others somewhat less.

I very much believe that whether there is a Millenium coming or not, whether there is a rapture or not, God's will is going to be done and His plan, whatever it may be has got to be better than mine or yours or Charles Spurgeon's as Spurgeon would probably concede were he available. And we all know how the story ends. Under the leadership of my Lord and Savior and yours, we win and Lucifer loses. It's guaranteed on the very Highest Authority. Right?

[xzins]

Yes. It's true that God wins and that those who are in Christ will win through Him.

However, I believe there's great benefit in learning and properly understanding all of the scriptural revelation that one can.

[fortheDeclaration]

No contradiction, Woody. The knowledge of the Lord will be present. People will still have to respond personally by faith. What's so hard about that?

Actually, faith will not be an issue in the Millennial reign, since God will be known throughout the earth (Hab.2:4)

What will be the issue is obedience, the subject of Matthew 5-7.

[fortheDeclaration]

All peoples of all times so far have had the requirement to turn to the Lord in faith. Why would it be any different for humans in the millennial kingdom?

Faith will not be needed (or possible) in the Millennial Kingdom, since the Law will be clearly defined, there will be no Satan as temptor.

Faith deals with the unseen not the seen.

The Millennial Kingdom is a return to the conditions of the Garden, where obedience not faith was the issue.

With the Millennial Kingdom God's Plan comes full circle.

[xzins]

faith deals with the unseen

OK, ftD, I'll concede this one to you. I'm thinking of "trust" perhaps. My only caveat is Jesus' words to Thomas, "blessed are those who see and believe...more blessed those who do not see and yet believe."

But Hebrews says, "faith is....evidence of things Unseen."

Perhaps these tie together in the word "trust." In any case, you are correct that obedience will be a critical issue.

[drstevej]

Matthew 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

=======

If the kingdom has come is His will being done on earth as it is in Heaven?

If earth today is a moral reflection of Heaven... something's amiss up there. Ya think?

Just a Wednesday morning reflection offered to the brethren and sistren.

[xzins]

Amen, DrJ. Your wisdom and knowledge of this subject far exceed my own. Lord's Prayer....so simple....thanks.

[drstevej]

We'll let this question have some peer review by the eschatological inquiry gang. Ping some others and see their response.

QUESTION:
If the kingdom has already come, is His will now being done on earth as it is now being done in Heaven? -- Matthew 6:10

[drstevej]

ping to 2534.

[xzins]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/749331/posts?page=2534#2534

Ping to the above on Spurgeon's Millennium....also to #2532. DrSteveJ has a question

[Jean Chauvin]

"NOW go to Isaiah 65:19-20. It says 19 "I will also (45) rejoice in Jerusalem and be glad in My people; And there will no longer be heard in her The voice of (46) weeping and the sound of crying. 20 "No longer will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, Or an old man who does (47) not live out his days; For the youth will die at the age of one hundred And the (48) one who does not reach the age of one hundred Will be thought accursed.

You have 3 and only 3 choices in placing that scripture in its proper time context.

1. It is NOW before the Return of Christ.
2. It is in the New Heavens and the New Earth (it doesn't matter whether the NHNE of the amillennialists or premillennialists.)
3. It is in the millennial reign of the premillennialists. "

Isaiah 65:17,18:
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

I'll take #2 for $1000, Bob!

Isaiah 65:17,l8 explicitly and specifically tells us that the description of 19-on ~IS~ the New Heavens and the New Earth!!!!!

Your rather tortured and bastardized readings of this passage, aside, or course, LOL!

Jean

(Sorry about the PM! -LOL!)

[BibChr]

No, and no.

Dan

[Jean Chauvin]

According to the Pre-Mil's, there ~WILL~ be rebellion, sin and the like during the 1000 millennial kingdom as well.

In other words, during the time when you guys say the Kingdom will be here, "His will [ in reality, is not] done on earth as it is now being done in Heaven". Goodness, even ftd says that there will be some who do not obey.

What is your point?

Jean

[Matchett-PI]

"If the kingdom has come is His will being done on earth as it is in Heaven?"

In response to the Pharisees, Christ specifically declared that the kingdom does not come visibly and gloriously (as the dispensational construction would have it!):

"And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, Lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you" (Luke 17:20-21). Obviously a spiritual conception of the kingdom is here demanded, in contradiction to an Armageddon-introduced, earthly, political kingdom.

This is why Christ went about preaching what is termed the "gospel of the kingdom" (Matt. 4:23; 9:35; 24:14; Mark 1:14-15). He proclaimed a redemptive, spiritual kingdom.

Hence His being exalted to His throne leads to a spiritual effusion of grace, not the political establishment of an earthly government (Luke 24:44-49; Acts 2:30-35; 3:22-26; 8:12; Eph. 4:8-11).

A major accusation against Jesus was that He promoted a political kingdom in competition with Caesar’s empire.

This explains why Jesus was concerned to discover the source of the accusation – He knew of the misconception of the Jews in this regard. His answer indicates that His is a spiritual kingdom:

Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews? Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me? Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?

Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice (John 18:33-37).

Had He not presented His kingship in terms of meekness and lowliness and not of a conquering, political entity? "All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass" (Matt. 21:4-5).

In illustration of the Emmaus Road confusion, John adds regarding this triumphal entry in fulfillment of prophecy that "these things understood not his disciples at the first: but when Jesus was glorified, then remembered they that these things were written of him, and that they had done these things unto him" (John 12:15-16).

Paul picks upon and promotes the spiritual nature of the kingdom, when he writes that "the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost" (Rom. 14:17).

He disavows any carnal conception of the kingdom.

Likewise does he speak of attaining an inheritance in the spiritual kingdom (the heavenly aspect of the kingdom) for those who are righteous (1 Cor. 6:9-10; 15:50; Gal. 5:21). He even says very plainly of the heavenly aspect of the kingdom:

"Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither cloth corruption inherit incorruption" (1 Cor. 15:50).

How could it be that an earthly, political kingdom would hold forth no inheritance for flesh and blood people?

It is in salvation that we are "delivered from the power of darkness, and translated into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins" (Col. 1:12-13).