Spurgeon's View of the MILLENNIUM

Pilgrim Pub. ^ | MARK A. MCNEIL

[xzins]

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CONFUSED ABOUT SPURGEON'S PROPHETIC VIEWS?

— WELL, NO LONGER!  HERE IS...

. Charles Haddon Spurgeon's VIEW OF THE
MILLENNIUM
	Annotated Summary by
	MARK A. MCNEIL

"I am not now going into millennial theories, or into any speculation as to dates. I do not know anything at all about such things, and I am not sure that I am called to spend my time in such researches. I am rather called to minister the gospel than to open prophecy. Those who are wise in such things doubtless prize their wisdom, but I have not the time to acquire it, nor any inclination to leave soul-winning pursuits for less arousing themes. I believe it is a great deal better to leave many of these promises, and many of these gracious out-looks of believers, to exercise their full force upon our minds, without depriving them of their simple glory by aiming to discover dates and figures. Let this be settled, however, that if there be meaning in words, Israel is yet to be restored. Israel is to have a SPIRITUAL RESTORATION or a CONVERSION."

[from The Restoration & Conversion of the Jews MTP Vol 10, Year 1864, pg. 429, Ezekiel 37:1-10 (age 30)]

INTRODUCTION

There has been some considerable difference of opinion regarding the position that C. H. Spurgeon, the great Baptist preacher from the 19th century, held in the area of Eschatology — regarding the doctrine of the Millennium. Each of the three major divisions within this area of doctrine have proponents who claim Spurgeon as one of their own. Many times authors claim a different millennial view than what Spurgeon actually believed.

It is not our task to sort out the arguments for each view. Such an assignment would take a very large volume (many are available) and the issue would still not be solved for all. We would simply like to define the basic positions and then demonstrate from Spurgeon's own words which one view he held.

PREMILLENNIALISM

The first view regarding the Millennium is that of PREMILLENNIALISM. The prefix, "Pre," denotes "before." The prefix is telling us at what point in relationship to the millennium that Christ will come. This view holds that our Lord will Literally return before a 1,000-year reign of Christ begins. The millennium of Revelation 20 is taken to be literal. If not literal, it at least is speaking of an indefinite period of time following the coming of Christ during which there will be perfect peace on the earth.

Within the premillennialist camp, there have come to be two identifiable views: the "dispensationalist" position, and the "historic" position. For further information defending each of these views, one should consult Reese's The Approaching Advent of Christ [historic] and Dwight Pentecost's Things to Come [dispensational]. Though the differences between the two are important, it is not within the scope of our purpose here to delve into such matters.

AMILLENNIALISM

The second view is called AMILLENNIALISM, or sometimes called "realized eschatology". The prefix, "A-," means "no". This would suggest that those who hold this view do not believe in a millennium. This is somewhat misleading, however. This view is the the product of a consistent Spiritual interpretation of prophetic literature. To those, the millennium is not some future physical reign, but the present reign of Christ in the hearts of believers. The "millennium" is an indefinite period of time (the present age) after which Christ will physically return. Prophecy in the Church, by Oswald Allis, is a standard work for the amillennial position.

This is the position of the Roman Catholic Church, also many other Protestant denominations. It grew out of St. Augustine's spiritualizing of these issues in his writings, and the tendency of many early Christian writers to see the Church as the "new Israel" and therefore the recipient of the promises of the Old Testament for the Jewish nation. Those who hold this view do not speak of the millennium as a future happening.  It is, to them, a Present Reality.

POSTMILLENNIALISM

The third, and last, major view is that of POSTMILLENNIALISM. The prefix "Post" speaks of "after." This teaching promotes the view that the physical return of Christ will Follow an actual millennium. The influence of Christianity will over-take the world for an extended period of time, then Christ will return.

This view appears to be a mixture of the principles that work to produce the first two views. It is not consistently spiritual or literal in its interpretation of the prophetic material relevant to this issue. Perhaps the foremost writing for this position today is The Millennium, by Loraine Boettner.

Spurgeon's VIEW  

With basic definitions before us, then, let's look at some quotes from Spurgeon to see what his position was on the Millennium.

"If I read the word aright, and it is honest to admit that there is much room for difference of opinion here, the day will come, when the Lord Jesus will descend from heaven with a shout, with the trump of the archangel and the voice of God. Some think that this descent of the Lord will be Post-millennial — that is, 'after the thousand years' of his reign. I CANNOT THINK SO. I conceive that the advent will be PRE-millennial — that He will come first; and then will come the millennium as the result of his personal reign upon earth. But whether or no, this much is the fact, that Christ will suddenly come, come to reign, and come to judge the earth in righteousness." [from Justification & Glory MTP Vol 11, Year 1865, pg. 249, Romans 8:30 (age 31)]

Spurgeon here specifically identifies the Postmillennial view with a clear DENIAL of any adherence to it! Those who attempt to claim Spurgeon for this viewpoint do not demonstrate their contention by referring to clear comparisons such as this one. They rather go to sermons not specifically dealing with both positions and pull out of them ideas that are "compatible" with Postmillennial thinking. This is a faulty way of proving a point, however* — especially when they meet squarely with a Spurgeon statement like the one above, and those below.

*NOTE: Furthur, a few postmillennialists (especially GARY NORTH), are guilty of misrepresenting Spurgeon constantly in articles and books; NORTH has repeatedly alleged that "Spurgeon was Postmillennial" — yet neither his supplied quotations "say" so, and/or he deliberately does not present a statement by Spurgeon that North will speculate "implies" a Postmillennial position. Our advice is to ignore anything North states regarding Spurgeon's views and Prophecy!

Again, consider Spurgeon's View here in light of 'Postmillennial' teaching...

"Paul does not paint the future with rose-colour: he is no smooth-tongued prophet of a golden age, into which this dull earth may be imagined to be glowing. There are sanguine brethren who are looking forward to everything growing better and better and better, until, at last, this present age ripens into a millennium. They will not be able to sustain their hopes, for Scripture gives them no solid basis to rest upon. We who believe that there will be no millennial reign without the King, and who expect no rule of righteousness except from the appearing of the righteous Lord, are nearer the mark. Apart from the second Advent of our Lord, the world is more likely to sink into a pandemonium than to rise into a millennium. A divine interposition seems to me the hope set before us in Scripture, and, indeed, to be the only hope adequate to the occasion. We look to the darkening down of things; the state of mankind, however improved politically, may yet grow worse and worse spiritually." [from The Form of Godliness Without the Power MTP Vol 35, Year 1889, pg. 301, 2 Timothy 3:5 (age 54)]

"We are to expect the literal advent of Jesus Christ, for he himself by his angel told us, 'This same Jesus which is taken up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven,' which must mean literally and in person. We expect a reigning Christ on earth; that seems to us to be very plain, and to be put so literally that we dare not spiritualise it. We anticipate a first and a second resurrection; a first resurrection of the righteous, and a second resurrection of the ungodly, who shall be judged, condemned, and punished for ever by the sentence of the great King." [from Things to Come MTP Vol 15, Year 1869, pg. 329, 1 Corinthians 3:22 (age 35)]

Here, stress is laid upon the Literal Nature of the second coming.  Also, after this literal return is stressed a reigning upon the earth.

"We have done once for all with the foolish ideas of certain of the early heretics, that Christ's appearance upon earth was but a phantom. We know that he was really, personally, and physically here on earth. But it is not quite so clear to some persons that he is to come really, personally, and literally, the second time. I know there are some who are labouring to get rid of the fact of a personal reign, but as I take it, the coming and the reign are so connected together, that we must have a spiritual coming if we are to have a spiritual reign. Now we believe and hold that Christ shall come a second time suddenly, to raise his saints at the first judgment, and they shall reign with him afterwards. The rest of the dead live not till after the thousand years are finished. Then shall they rise from their tombs at the sounding of the trumpet, and their judgment shall come and they shall receive the deeds which they have done in their bodies." [from The Two Advents of Christ MTP Vol 8, Year 1862, pg. 39, Hebrews 9:27-28 (age 28)]

[from The Sinner's End MTP Vol 8, Year 1862, pgs. 712-713, Psalms 73:17-18 (age 28)], Spurgeon is discussing the final condition of the sinner — "Let us go on to consider their end. The day of days, that dreadful day has come. The millennial rest is over, the righteous have had their thousand years of glory upon earth."

In the quotes above, the order of events fits perfectly the PREmillennial point of view. The final end of the sinner is faced after the righteous have enjoyed a thousand years with Christ.

.
	"Our Hope is the Personal PRE-MILLENNIAL RETURN of the   Lord Jesus Christ in Glory."
	— August 1891, age 58

Of the various articles and writings by those who deny the conclusion that we feel is obvious, none that I have found bases itself on the same type of quotes we have produced (many others could have been given — see those that follow). To the contrary, their's are based on "interpreting" Spurgeon's statements apart from such quotes that we have given.

.

We feel safe in concluding, then,

that of the three views we began with,

Spurgeon expressly states that he believes in a

Literal Return of Jesus Christ

BEFORE

a Literal Millennium on the Earth.

———————————————————————————

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Written by Mark A. McNeil (Houston TX USA), B.A., M.A., & PhD. Student

Author of An Evaluation of the 'Oneness Pentecostal' Movement

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Watching and Waiting Magazine

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From the Summer 1990 issue of this magazine, C. W. H. Griffiths states Spurgeon "was a valued standard bearer for historic Pre-millennialism," and then presents an excellent article defending his Pre-millennial position.

Documenting additional quotations which we have added and expanded below —

Spurgeon (age 43) — There is moreover to be a reign of Christ. I cannot read the Scriptures without perceiving that there is to be a pre-millennial reign, as I believe, upon the earth and that there shall be new heavens and a new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness...

Spurgeon (age 49) — Then all His people who are alive at the time of His coming shall be suddenly transformed, so as to be delivered from all the frailties and imperfections of their mortal bodies: The dead shall be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed. Then we shall be presented spirit, soul, and body without spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; in the clear and absolute perfection of our sanctified manhood, presented unto Christ Himself.

Spurgeon (age 50) — When the Lord comes there will be no more death; we who are alive and remain (as some of us may be — we cannot tell) will undergo a sudden transformation — for flesh and blood, as they are, cannot inherit the kingdom of God — and by that transformation our bodies shall be made meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light.

Spurgeon (age 52) — His coming will cause great sorrow. What does the text say about his coming? All kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Then this sorrow will be very general.

Spurgeon (age 30) [from The Restoration & Conversion of the Jews MTP Vol 10, Year 1864, pgs. 427-430, Ezekiel  37:1-10] — Under the preaching of the Word the vilest sinners can be reclaimed, the most stubborn wills can be subdued, the most unholy lives can be sanctified. When the holy "breath" comes from the four winds, when the divine Spirit descends to own the Word, then multitudes of sinners, as on Pentecost's hallowed day, stand up upon their feet, an exceeding great army, to praise the Lord their God. But, mark you, this is not the first and proper interpretation of the text; it is indeed nothing more than a very striking parallel case to the one before us. It is not the case itself; it is only a similar one, for the way in which God restores a nation is, practically, the way in which he restores an individual. The way in which Israel shall be saved is the same by which any one individual sinner shall be saved. It is not, however, the one case which the prophet is aiming at; he is looking at the vast mass of cases, the multitudes of instances to be found among the Jewish people, of gracious quickening, and holy resurrection. His first and primary intention was to speak of them, and though it is right and lawful to take a passage in its widest possible meaning, since "no Scripture is of private interpretation," yet I hold it to be treason to God's Word to neglect its primary meaning, and constantly to say — "Such-and-such is the primary meaning, but it is of no consequence, and I shall use the words for another object." The preacher of God's truth should not give up the Holy Ghost's meaning; he should take care that he does not even put it in the back ground. The first meaning of a text, the Spirit's meaning, is that which would be brought out first, and though the rest may fairly spring out of it, yet the first sense should have the chief place. Let it have the uppermost place in the synagogue, let it be looked upon as at least not inferior, either in interest or importance, to any other meaning which may come out of the text.

The meaning of our text, as opened up by the context, is most evidently, if words mean anything, first, that there shall be a political restoration of the Jews to their own land and to their own nationality; and then, secondly, there is in the text, and in the context, a most plain declaration, that there shall be a spiritual restoration, a conversion in fact, of the tribes of Israel.

The promise is that they shall renounce their idols, and, behold, they have already done so. "Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols." Whatever faults the Jew may have besides, he certainly has no idolatry. "The Lord thy God is one God," is a truth far better conceived by the Jew than by any other man on earth except the Christian. Weaned for ever from the worship of all images, of whatever sort, the Jewish nation has now become infatuated with traditions or duped by philosophy. She is to have, however, instead of these delusions, a spiritual religion: she is to love her God. "They shall be my people, and I will be their God." The unseen but omnipotent Jehovah is to be worshipped in spirit and in truth by his ancient people; they are to come before him in his own appointed way, accepting the Mediator whom their sires rejected; coming into covenant relation with God, for so our text tells us — "I will make a covenant of peace with them," and Jesus is our peace, therefore we gather that Jehovah shall enter into the covenant of grace with them, that covenant of which Christ is the federal head, the substance, and the surety. They are to walk in God's ordinances and statutes, and so exhibit the practical effects of being united to Christ who hath given them peace. All these promises certainly imply that the people of Israel are to be converted to God, and that this conversion is to be permanent, for the tabernacle of God is to be with them, the Most High is, in an especial manner, to have his sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore; so that whatever nations may apostatize and turn from the Lord in these latter days, the nation of Israel never can, for she shall be effectually and permanently converted, the hearts of the fathers shall be turned with the hearts of the children unto the Lord their God, and they shall be the people of God, world without end.

We look forward, then, for these two things. I am not going to theorize upon which of them will come first, whether they shall be restored first, and converted afterwards, or converted first, and then restored. They are to be restored, and they are to be converted too. Let the Lord send these blessings in his own order, and we shall be well content whichever way they shall come. We take this for our joy and our comfort, that this thing shall be, and that both in the spiritual and in the temporal throne, the King Messiah shall sit, and reign among his people gloriously.

Spurgeon (age 30) [from The Lamb — the Light MTP Vol 10, Year 1864, pg. 439, Revelation 21:23] — (Spurgeon says of the millennial earth), They shall not say one to another, "Know the Lord: for all shall know him, from the least to the greatest." There may be even in that period certain solemn assemblies and Sabbath-days, but they will not be of the same kind as we have now; for the whole earth will be a temple, every day will be a Sabbath, the avocations of men will all be priestly, they shall be a nation of priests — distinctly so, and they shall day without night serve God in his temple, so that everything to which they set their hand shall be a part of the song which shall go up to the Most High. Oh! blessed day. Would God it had dawned, when these temples should be left, because the whole world should be a temple for God. But whatever may be the splendours of that day — and truly here is a temptation to let our imagination revel — however bright may be the walls set with chalcedony and amethyst, however splendid the gates which are of one pearl, whatever may be the magnificence set forth by the "streets of gold," this we know, that the sum and substance, the light and glory of the whole will be the person of our Lord Jesus Christ, "for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof." Now, I want the Christian to meditate over this. In the highest, holiest, and happiest era that shall ever dawn upon this poor earth, Christ is to be her light. When she puts on her wedding garments, and adorns herself as a bride is adorned with jewels, Christ is to be her glory and her beauty. There shall be no ear-rings in her ears made with other gold than that which cometh from his mine of love; there shall be no crown set upon her brow fashioned by any other hand than his hands of wisdom and of grace. She sits to reign, but it shall be upon his throne; she feeds, but it shall be upon his bread; she triumphs, but it shall be because of the might which ever belongs to him who is the Rock of Ages. Come then, Christian, contemplate for a moment thy beloved Lord. Jesus, in a millennial age, shall be the light and the glory of the city of the new Jerusalem. Observe then, that Jesus makes the light of the millennium, because his presence will be that which distinguishes that age from the present. That age is to be akin to paradise. Paradise God first made upon earth, and paradise God will last make. Satan destroyed it; and God will never have defeated his enemy until he has re-established paradise, until once again a new Eden shall bless the eyes of God's creatures. Now, the very glory and privilege of Eden I take to be not the river which flowed through it with its four branches, nor that it came from the land of Havilah which hath dust of gold — I do not think the glory of Eden lay in its grassy walks, or in the boughs bending with luscious fruit — but its glory lay in this, that the "Lord God walked in the garden in the cool of the day." Here was Adam's highest privilege, that he had companionship with the Most High. In those days angels sweetly sang that the tabernacle of God was with man, and that he did dwell amongst them. Brethren, the paradise which is to be regained for us will have this for its essential and distinguishing mark, that the Lord shall dwell amongst us. This is the name by which the city is to be called — Jehovah Shammah, the Lord is there. It is true we have the presence of Christ in the Church now — "Lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world." We have the promise of his constant indwelling: "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." But still that is vicariously by his Spirit, but soon he is to be personally with us. That very man who once died upon Calvary is to live here. He — that same Jesus — who was taken up from us, shall come in like manner as he was taken up from the gazers of Galilee. Rejoice, rejoice, beloved, that he comes, actually and really comes; and this shall be the joy of that age, that he is among his saints, and dwelleth in them, with them, and talketh and walketh in their midst.

"If I read the word aright, and it is honest to admit that there is much room for difference of opinion here, the day will come, when the Lord Jesus will descend from heaven with a shout, with the trump of the archangel and the voice of God. Some think that this descent of the Lord will be Post-millennial — that is, 'after the thousand years' of his reign. I CANNOT THINK SO. I conceive that the advent will be PRE-millennial — that He will come first; and then will come the millennium as the result of his personal reign upon earth. But whether or no, this much is the fact, that Christ will suddenly come, come to reign, and come to judge the earth in righteousness." [from Justification & Glory MTP Vol 11, Year 1865, pg. 249, Romans 8:30 (age 31)]

[xzins]

In the following, we have Paul giving a clear time span from the return of Christ until the end when Paul says that "Christ must reign" during that period.

This clearly ties to John's 1000 year reign mentioned in Revelation 5 & 20 (see post #2495)

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Paul and The Time Span of the Millennial Kingdom in 1 Cor 15: 22-26

Text	Scripture	Associated Resurrection	Time
1 Co 15: 23a	23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits;	Jesus’ Own was the First Resurrection	Time Point: Resurrection Sunday, approx 33 AD
1 Co 15: 23b	23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.	Those who are Christ’s (those who are dead in Christ + the rapture of those who are alive …1Th4:16-17)	Time Point: At the 2nd Coming of Christ
1 Co 15: 24-26	24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.	The Remainder Resurrected at the End	TIME SPAN Beginning at THE RETURN "He MUST REIGN" UNTIL All enemies, INCLUDING DEATH, destroyed.

[theAmbassador]

I think I have figured it out: Of course, PreMillennialism does have problems as well. These enemies of the Lord will masquerade as believers in this glorious kingdom reign of Christ on this earth. They are double minded and unstable in all their ways. As the Psalter puts it, "because Thy statutes are despised, with overwhelming grief I weep." So much for this "glorious" kingdom.

You should know that I am **NOT** describing Premillennialists in this paragraph, but Premillennialism. And that is an entirely different thing. It is the nonReformed Premillennialist xzins who has maintained that in this glorious reign of Christ on this sinful earth that there will be pretenders who will outwardly show all the signs of being converted to the Lord, but inward will be ravenous wolves waiting for the release of their master so that they can wage war upon the saints. He has even said that these people must be there so that ~WE~ will have somebody to rule over.

So, you see, my supposed non sequitur was perhaps not well stated, but I was referring to past assertions of Premillennialists here. This paradise is not so much about the rule of Christ as it is about the rule of man over man, which is why I quipped that Premillennialism is "much ado about nothing."

There are additional problems with this assertion of pretenders in the Lord's kingdom for as the Psalter puts it, "because Thy statutes are despised, with overwhelming grief I weep." How can I enjoy a glorious thousand year reign over the Lord's enemies when I know perfectly well that they despise His statues? Do I not hate them that hate Him with a perfect hatred? Will I not weep with overwhelming grief? Will I not still groan within myself that creation yet awaits the deliverance from the bondage of sin and decay?

There can be no vision of God in the face of Jesus Christ in this kingdom. Still only in a glass darkly.

Just how is this suppose to be a glorious reign?

For these reasons, and more, we Reformed Amillennialists don't have any excitement about the possibility that we might be wrong. What excites us Amillennialists is that when the Lord returns, it will be THE Day of vengeance of our God where He will flood the earth with fire (2 Peter 3:10). Then, we will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of our Father.

[xzins]

You should know that I am **NOT** describing Premillennialists in this paragraph, but Premillennialism. And that is an entirely different thing. It is the nonReformed Premillennialist xzins who has maintained that in this glorious reign of Christ on this sinful earth that there will be pretenders who will outwardly show all the signs of being converted to the Lord, but inward will be ravenous wolves waiting for the release of their master so that they can wage war upon the saints. He has even said that these people must be there so that ~WE~ will have somebody to rule over.

At least you've given up on a scriptural argument. Now you're just saying that Xzins is the problem.

I have absolutely nothing to do with planning the millennial kingdom of Christ on this earth. He is totally in charge.

There is a sequence of events decreed upon this earth from now until the end. One of those events is the millennium.

During that time, we who believe in Christ and those who will have already died in Christ will have a different status and body and judgement than those unbelievers who are yet alive on the face of the earth at his coming. We will have a different status and body and judgement than those who will be born during the span of that kingdom. If the pre-trib rapturists are correct, we will have a different status and body and judgement than those who become believers during the tribulation and are still alive when at the beginning of that kingdom. "Now we see through a glass darkly, but then face to face." Hallelujah!!

But the issue is the scripture in post 2495 and 2501. And the remainder of the bible. It was written by God.

[theAmbassador]

At least you've given up on a scriptural argument.

Please don't be directly insulting like that. I am making an argument against the Premillennial interpretation of scripture by using what the scripture teaches that this paradise will be like.

I have, despite Jerry's misunderstanding, fairly treated your statements about what scripture teaches. And that is charitable, after all. Just because you post your chart with scripture and an explaination, doesn't mean you are making a scriptural argument. I have yet to see a sound exposition, which demonstrate that Rev 20:4 teaches a glorious reign of Christ on this earth as Jean Chauvin has been so good to point out.

I'm merely, in charity, assuming that your reading is correct and pointing out a few of the problems with this interpretation. You declaration that they are not scriptural, when I can point to you the scriptures themselves, either makes you uncharitable or at worst a deceiver.

So, please lighten up a little and actually look at what I'm saying. It really is a good argument against Premillennialism. Your paradise has a few very obvious problems with it as far as the scriptures are concerned. This is why I'm not all that excited about the possibility of Premillennialism being correct.

[xzins]

Your paradise has a few very obvious problems with it as far as the scriptures are concerned. This is why I'm not all that excited about the possibility of Premillennialism being correct.

It's only fair for me to give you the benefit of the doubt about using my name in your post.

The scriptures point to the fact of a millennial reign of Christ on earth.

You are pointing out issues about sequence and status WITHIN that millennial kingdom when Christ reigns. That's not an argument against the validity of the millennial kingdom.

At best it merely points out that putting the sequence together is a lengthy task because there's so much about the millennial reign in the OT and NT prophecies.

[the_doc]

Hyper-Preterism, OTOH, is itself a prima facie Fatal Heresy -- or at least a Doctrine of Demons so vile that it irresistibly leads into Fatal Heresy if not recanted.

That's a succinct way of stating my position.

[theAmbassador]

It's only fair for me to give you the benefit of the doubt about using my name in your post.

?????????

The scriptures point to the fact of a millennial reign of Christ on earth.

Only the Premillennial interpretation of scriptures point to a millennial reign of Christ on this earth. We Amillennialists maintain that your interpretation is wrong.

You are pointing out issues about sequence and status WITHIN that millennial kingdom when Christ reigns. That's not an argument against the validity of the millennial kingdom.

I'm pointing out a glaring problem with Premillennialism. Remember that it is you Premillennialists here on FR who have maintained that there will be pretenders in the Lord's kingdom. I'm merely pointing out that this assertion has consequences which must be addressed Biblically:

• the Psalter: "because Thy statutes are despised, with overwhelming grief I weep."

• There can be no vision of God in the face of Jesus Christ in this kingdom. Still only in a glass darkly.

How can I enjoy a glorious thousand year reign over the Lord's enemies when I know perfectly well that they despise His statues? Do I not hate them that hate Him with a perfect hatred? Will I not weep with overwhelming grief? Will I not still groan within myself that creation yet awaits the deliverance from the bondage of sin and decay? How can there even be pretenders in the Lord's kingdom when I will have a glorified body and they will not? Or is it your assertion that someone with a glorified body can fall away?

[xzins]

You do maintain that our interpretation of scripture is wrong. You base everything on 2 Pe 3. We easily incorporate 2 Pe 3.

What do you mean by pretender? All of those born during the millennium will have the opportunity to believe for themselves and follow the Lord or to not believe. They will be ruled over in God's perfect kingdom by the Lord's own specific guidelines. Those who reject him will do so once Satan is released. They will demonstrate where their hearts really were by following Satan. They will seal their own fate.

[theAmbassador]

You do maintain that our interpretation of scripture is wrong. You base everything on 2 Pe 3. We easily incorporate 2 Pe 3.

No, I don't. However, you base everything on Rev 20. There, how do you like them apples?

What do you mean by pretender? All of those born during the millennium will have the opportunity to believe for themselves and follow the Lord or to not believe. They will be ruled over in God's perfect kingdom by the Lord's own specific guidelines. Those who reject him will do so once Satan is released. They will demonstrate where their hearts really were by following Satan. They will seal their own fate.

So, who will be having babies during the millennium? Those of us in glorified bodies or those who are not saved (pretenders), but happen to be alive when the Lord returns?

BTW, how can the Lord's kingdom be perfect when it will be sitting upon a foundation of decaying rocks (Romans 8:21). You Premillennialists tell me that the earth will still be needing to be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God; that this earth, and the perfect kingdom upon it will still be subjected to futility. Hmmmm!

Perhaps you would rather I stayed within the boundary of 2 Pe 3:10. ;^)

[xzins]

Go to the table at 2501 above and to the section for 1 Co 15:24-26. The scripture mentions the period of time during which the renewal is taking place. That aligns perfectly with Rev 20. It also aligns perfectly with the day of 2 Pe 3. And with the imprisonment of Is 24:22.

I'm sorry to ascribe to you the opinions of others. You are correct. It was another who said the entire case was made in 2 Pe 3.

What other scripture do you consider most significant to the amill position?

[theAmbassador]

I do not consider any single scripture most significant to the Amillennial interpretation of scripture. They must all agree.

So, since you did not adress either of my points in the last post, please answer these questions:

So, who will be having babies during the millennium? Those of us in glorified bodies or those who are not saved (pretenders), but happen to be alive when the Lord returns?

BTW, how can the Lord's kingdom be perfect when it will be sitting upon a foundation of decaying rocks (Romans 8:21). You Premillennialists tell me that the earth will still be needing to be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God; that this earth, and the perfect kingdom upon it will still be subjected to futility. Hmmmm!

[xzins]

I did address your post. I pointed you to the verses that demonstrate a "renewal" taking place. Is 65 makes clear that there will be babies being born. Those who have been raised with the Lord will be like the angels in heaven as Jesus has said. They will not be the ones having babies.

Those who are in unresurrected form on the earth will be the fertile ones having babies. According to the pretribs that will be living tribulation believers and tribulation Jews who miss the rapture but who become believers. According to the posttribs that will be those who are alive, not having been part of the armies of opposition, they will be ruled with a rod of iron. I imagine many will respond to the Lord in faith.

[theAmbassador]

Bear with me as you have left several points unanswered, but I needed a clarification on who will be having babies in the millennial kingdom.

Those who are in unresurrected form on the earth will be the fertile ones having babies. According to the pretribs that will be living tribulation believers and tribulation Jews who miss the rapture but who become believers. According to the posttribs that will be those who are alive, not having been part of the armies of opposition, they will be ruled with a rod of iron. I imagine many will respond to the Lord in faith.

If I understand Premillennialism correctly, you are now telling me that after the Lord returns to the earth, that there will still be the preaching of the gospel to the lost. This reminds me of the post mortem evangelism crowd. I was evidently unaware of just how dangerous Premillennialism really is. If this any way resembles Reformed Premillennialism, then I am quite frankly shocked that any believe it.

The continuation of this conversation may have to wait until tomorrow, but I do want to go back and visit some key scriptures which you must address directly or admit that Premillennialism is a fraud.

I'll leave you with this:

For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things,....

The High Priest I serve is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, a minister of the true tabernacle. In other words, the Lord has already assumed His eternal glory, which He cannot perform if He were on earth.

[fortheDeclaration]

If I understand Premillennialism correctly, you are now telling me that after the Lord returns to the earth, that there will still be the preaching of the gospel to the lost

No, there will be no more 'preaching'(Zach 13:3-4) since God will be known everywhere, For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea (Hab.2:4)

[xzins]

The Bible says Jesus Christ will return and will reign on the earth for 1000 years. As much as it makes other theories more difficult to propose, you should be willing to consider it.

All peoples of all times so far have had the requirement to turn to the Lord in faith. Why would it be any different for humans in the millennial kingdom?

The issue isn't really what I'd prefer the picture of the future to be. The issue is what the Lord has actually revealed. What difference is it to you if babies are born if that's what the scriptures reveal? What difference is it if humans must believe in Christ in some millennial dispensation of grace if that's what the scriptures reveal?

Your arguments are totally off scripture now, and all you're doing is complaining about what you don't like that scripture reveals regarding the millennial kingdom. What gives? I think you realize those scriptures for Rev 5, Rev 20, and I Co 15 above are an irrefutable presentation.

[CCWoody]

I imagine many will respond to the Lord in faith. ~ xzins

No, there will be no more 'preaching'(Zach 13:3-4) since God will be known everywhere, For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea (Hab.2:4) ~ ftd

---

OK, xzins, which is it. Will there be people saved during the millennium or not. You Premills can't even agree on this fundamental aspect of Premillennialism.

[CCWoody]

Just for my curiosity, xzins, what argument in that post is not scriptural? I see that he is making a summary of what you told him, making a comment about that and then leaving you with an argument. Are you telling me that that argument is not scriptural?

[xzins]

No contradiction, Woody. The knowledge of the Lord will be present. People will still have to respond personally by faith. What's so hard about that?

What do you think is the strongest scripture that explains the "amillennial" position? Which one is it?

[xzins]

There is nothing there except complaining about something he doesn't cite. There is no attempt at all to use scripture. #2495 and #2501 use scripture. Go check them out. They're irrefutable.

[CCWoody]

No contradiction, Woody. The knowledge of the Lord will be present. People will still have to respond personally by faith. What's so hard about that?

Because faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. It is scriptural. And how will they hear unless a preacher is sent to preach the gospel?

I guess that according to the PreMillennial interpretation of the Bible faith does not come by hearing.

What do you think is the strongest scripture that explains the "amillennial" position? Which one is it?

You mean like Rev 20:1-6 "makes the day" for the PreMills? The strongest scripture that explains the Amill position is the Gen 1:1 - Rev 22:21.