Spurgeon's View of the MILLENNIUM

Pilgrim Pub. ^ | MARK A. MCNEIL

[xzins]

Somehow you believe that the Lord is incapable of telling his own story seeing that he's present during the millennium. Jesus told Thomas, "blessed are those who see and believe; more blessed are those who do not see and yet believer." This millennial world will be a world of those who get to "see and believe."

I can see you have no case in terms of scripture. I thought so. There is nothing that explains an amillennial view of scripture anywhere in scripture. There is a lot for premillennialism. I invite everyone to #2501 and #2495.

[RnMomof7]

OK

[RnMomof7]

Those who are in unresurrected form on the earth will be the fertile ones having babies. According to the pretribs that will be living tribulation believers and tribulation Jews who miss the rapture but who become believers. According to the posttribs that will be those who are alive, not having been part of the armies of opposition, they will be ruled with a rod of iron. I imagine many will respond to the Lord in faith.

Doesn't scripture say we will be changed when we see him?

1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

[RnMomof7]

All peoples of all times so far have had the requirement to turn to the Lord in faith. Why would it be any different for humans in the millennial kingdom?

So in effect the millennial reign will be just like now? ohhhhhhhhh I don't know about that

point on having babies and the word needing to be preached in the 1000 goes to the amils xzins

[RnMomof7]

Somehow you believe that the Lord is incapable of telling his own story seeing that he's present during the millennium.

The King of Kings is present and ruling in righteouness and the devil is bound and He needs to convince people ??I keep moving closer to the amil the more I read on this zxins

[xzins]

Rn, the issue is the scripture of Rev 5, Rev 20, and 1 Co 15. They say there's a 1000 year reign of Christ on earth after his return. We can like that or not like that, but it's still the bible. There are different groups of people for you to keep track of because things are different than now. 1. Those who have been resurrected or translated.
2. Those who are living on the earth at Christ's return.
3. Those who are born on earth after Christ's return.

NOW go to Isaiah 65:19-20. It says 19 "I will also (45) rejoice in Jerusalem and be glad in My people; And there will no longer be heard in her The voice of (46) weeping and the sound of crying. 20 "No longer will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, Or an old man who does (47) not live out his days; For the youth will die at the age of one hundred And the (48) one who does not reach the age of one hundred Will be thought accursed.

You have 3 and only 3 choices in placing that scripture in its proper time context.

1. It is NOW before the Return of Christ.
2. It is in the New Heavens and the New Earth (it doesn't matter whether the NHNE of the amillennialists or premillennialists.)
3. It is in the millennial reign of the premillennialists.

It speaks of youths dying. It speaks of old men dying. One who dies at 100 will be considered a youth. Old men, it says, will live out their age.

Now, where does it fit? Where? You have only 3 choices: Now, NHNE, Millennium.

1. Do you think that NOW we have people living well past 100? Are there any you know who consider a 100 year old to be a "youth?" No. It clearly isn't NOW, is it?

2. Is it the New Heaven and the New Earth? If it is then there is death there. But the bible says "there is no more death" doesn't it? Or are you going to have death in the NHNE? If so, then you might as well work through the scriptural problems of the millennium because You're gonna start asking yourself who these folks are and why they're having babies and why they're dying in the NHNE.

3. Is it the millennial reign? Well, if I had to pick a place, I'd pick this place. There are people living there who were not resurrected or raptured. But there's no verse that says there's NO DEATH. Instead, there are verses like 1 Co 15 that say Christ must reign until all enemies are put down....the LAST enemy to be destroyed is death.

So, takes your picks. No matter which one you pick you get to work on the scriptural difficulties. My difficulties involve organizing sequence. Their difficulties involve "what am I gonna symbolize now to make this make even a modicum of sense?" I know, we'll symbolize Satan in the now and say he has no power. I know we'll symbolize new meanings for death and life in the NHNE or in the NOW.

If that trips your switch, then welcome to rendering the bible one big trip of symbols.

So, then, if I symbolize his reign on earth WHY can't I symbolize His return? What rule says I can't? If I can do the one why can't I do the other? Why can't I symbolize the entire NHNE? The New Jerusalem? The Streets of Gold? The Tree of Life?

Why not symbolize the resurrection along with the liberals?

[BlackElk]

I am Catholic. We believe that we will not know the time, the day, the hour of his coming, as Jesus told us in Scripture. I believe that His Second Coming may well be at hand but how would I know? We ought live our lives as though it will not be in our lifetimes and yet be prepared in our souls for the possibility that it will be ten minutes or one minute from now. Whether He will preside over a Millenium on earth or not I do not know and I don't have to know. All I need to know is that He IS coming and that He will fulfill each and every promise and that under His leadership, we will share the promised final victory over Lucifer.

By way of an analogy of sorts, I know that demonic possession is allowed by the Lord for whatever His reasons may be. My instinct is that it is not healthy to dwell on possession lest one inadvertently invite it. I would not handle or allow a Ouija Board to be handled by anyone in my family or Tarot Cards or other things that not only violate the First Commandment but also invite possession.

I need to dwell on my own sinfulness more and to dwell on the sinfulness of others somewhat less.

I very much believe that whether there is a Millenium coming or not, whether there is a rapture or not, God's will is going to be done and His plan, whatever it may be has got to be better than mine or yours or Charles Spurgeon's as Spurgeon would probably concede were he available. And we all know how the story ends. Under the leadership of my Lord and Savior and yours, we win and Lucifer loses. It's guaranteed on the very Highest Authority. Right?

[xzins]

Yes. It's true that God wins and that those who are in Christ will win through Him.

However, I believe there's great benefit in learning and properly understanding all of the scriptural revelation that one can.

[fortheDeclaration]

No contradiction, Woody. The knowledge of the Lord will be present. People will still have to respond personally by faith. What's so hard about that?

Actually, faith will not be an issue in the Millennial reign, since God will be known throughout the earth (Hab.2:4)

What will be the issue is obedience, the subject of Matthew 5-7.

[fortheDeclaration]

All peoples of all times so far have had the requirement to turn to the Lord in faith. Why would it be any different for humans in the millennial kingdom?

Faith will not be needed (or possible) in the Millennial Kingdom, since the Law will be clearly defined, there will be no Satan as temptor.

Faith deals with the unseen not the seen.

The Millennial Kingdom is a return to the conditions of the Garden, where obedience not faith was the issue.

With the Millennial Kingdom God's Plan comes full circle.

[xzins]

faith deals with the unseen

OK, ftD, I'll concede this one to you. I'm thinking of "trust" perhaps. My only caveat is Jesus' words to Thomas, "blessed are those who see and believe...more blessed those who do not see and yet believe."

But Hebrews says, "faith is....evidence of things Unseen."

Perhaps these tie together in the word "trust." In any case, you are correct that obedience will be a critical issue.

[drstevej]

Matthew 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

=======

If the kingdom has come is His will being done on earth as it is in Heaven?

If earth today is a moral reflection of Heaven... something's amiss up there. Ya think?

Just a Wednesday morning reflection offered to the brethren and sistren.

[xzins]

Amen, DrJ. Your wisdom and knowledge of this subject far exceed my own. Lord's Prayer....so simple....thanks.

[drstevej]

We'll let this question have some peer review by the eschatological inquiry gang. Ping some others and see their response.

QUESTION:
If the kingdom has already come, is His will now being done on earth as it is now being done in Heaven? -- Matthew 6:10

[drstevej]

ping to 2534.

[xzins]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/749331/posts?page=2534#2534

Ping to the above on Spurgeon's Millennium....also to #2532. DrSteveJ has a question

[Jean Chauvin]

"NOW go to Isaiah 65:19-20. It says 19 "I will also (45) rejoice in Jerusalem and be glad in My people; And there will no longer be heard in her The voice of (46) weeping and the sound of crying. 20 "No longer will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, Or an old man who does (47) not live out his days; For the youth will die at the age of one hundred And the (48) one who does not reach the age of one hundred Will be thought accursed.

You have 3 and only 3 choices in placing that scripture in its proper time context.

1. It is NOW before the Return of Christ.
2. It is in the New Heavens and the New Earth (it doesn't matter whether the NHNE of the amillennialists or premillennialists.)
3. It is in the millennial reign of the premillennialists. "

Isaiah 65:17,18:
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

I'll take #2 for $1000, Bob!

Isaiah 65:17,l8 explicitly and specifically tells us that the description of 19-on ~IS~ the New Heavens and the New Earth!!!!!

Your rather tortured and bastardized readings of this passage, aside, or course, LOL!

Jean

(Sorry about the PM! -LOL!)

[BibChr]

No, and no.

Dan

[Jean Chauvin]

According to the Pre-Mil's, there ~WILL~ be rebellion, sin and the like during the 1000 millennial kingdom as well.

In other words, during the time when you guys say the Kingdom will be here, "His will [ in reality, is not] done on earth as it is now being done in Heaven". Goodness, even ftd says that there will be some who do not obey.

What is your point?

Jean

[Matchett-PI]

"If the kingdom has come is His will being done on earth as it is in Heaven?"

In response to the Pharisees, Christ specifically declared that the kingdom does not come visibly and gloriously (as the dispensational construction would have it!):

"And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, Lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you" (Luke 17:20-21). Obviously a spiritual conception of the kingdom is here demanded, in contradiction to an Armageddon-introduced, earthly, political kingdom.

This is why Christ went about preaching what is termed the "gospel of the kingdom" (Matt. 4:23; 9:35; 24:14; Mark 1:14-15). He proclaimed a redemptive, spiritual kingdom.

Hence His being exalted to His throne leads to a spiritual effusion of grace, not the political establishment of an earthly government (Luke 24:44-49; Acts 2:30-35; 3:22-26; 8:12; Eph. 4:8-11).

A major accusation against Jesus was that He promoted a political kingdom in competition with Caesar’s empire.

This explains why Jesus was concerned to discover the source of the accusation – He knew of the misconception of the Jews in this regard. His answer indicates that His is a spiritual kingdom:

Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews? Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me? Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?

Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice (John 18:33-37).

Had He not presented His kingship in terms of meekness and lowliness and not of a conquering, political entity? "All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass" (Matt. 21:4-5).

In illustration of the Emmaus Road confusion, John adds regarding this triumphal entry in fulfillment of prophecy that "these things understood not his disciples at the first: but when Jesus was glorified, then remembered they that these things were written of him, and that they had done these things unto him" (John 12:15-16).

Paul picks upon and promotes the spiritual nature of the kingdom, when he writes that "the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost" (Rom. 14:17).

He disavows any carnal conception of the kingdom.

Likewise does he speak of attaining an inheritance in the spiritual kingdom (the heavenly aspect of the kingdom) for those who are righteous (1 Cor. 6:9-10; 15:50; Gal. 5:21). He even says very plainly of the heavenly aspect of the kingdom:

"Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither cloth corruption inherit incorruption" (1 Cor. 15:50).

How could it be that an earthly, political kingdom would hold forth no inheritance for flesh and blood people?

It is in salvation that we are "delivered from the power of darkness, and translated into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins" (Col. 1:12-13).