Posted on 09/11/2002 6:13:12 PM PDT by RnMomof7
What is predestination?
by R. C. Sproul ------------------------------------------------------------------------
When the Bible speaks of predestination, it speaks of God's sovereign involvement in certain things before they happen. He chooses in advance certain things to take place. For example, he predestined creation. Before God created the world, he decided to do it.
Usually when people think of predestination, they think about whether or not somebody was hit by an automobile on a given day because God had decided ahead of time that that should happen on that day.
Theologically, the principal issue of predestination in the Bible has to do with God selecting people for salvation beforehand. The Bible clearly does teach that somehow God chooses people for salvation before they're even born. Virtually every Christian church believes that, because this concept is so clearly taught in Scripture.
Paul refers to Jacob and Esau. Before they were even born, before they had done any good or evil, God decreed in advance that the elder would serve the younger: "Jacob have I loved; Esau have I hated." The point there is that God had chosen certain benefits for one of those two before they were even born.
The real debate is, On what basis does God predestine? We know that he predestines, but why does he predestine, and what is the basis for his choices? Many Christians believe that God knows in advance what people are going to do, what choices they're going to make, and what activities they're going to be involved in. As he looks through the corridor of time and knows what choices you will make, for example, he knows that you will hear the gospel. He knows whether you will say yes or no. If he knows that you are going to say yes, then he chooses you for salvation on the basis of his prior knowledge. I don't hold that position. I think that God does this sovereignly, not arbitrarily, not whimsically. The only basis I see for predestination in the Bible is the good pleasure of his own will. The only other reason is to honor his only begotten Son. The reason for his selection is not in me and not in you and not in some foreseen good or evil, but in his own sovereignty.
Reprinted by permission of Ligonier Ministries from "Now That's A Good Question" by R.C. Sproul.----------------
LOL That is another thread ...And I find myself with STRANGE bedfellows on that one:>))
My experience is when it gets uncomfortable to think about they stop posting
You know what the bible says
Jhn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
No one wants to believe that they were not in charge of their eternity...remember the expression "let go and let God" as if God can not act unless we let go...
So they close their eyes and decide to end the discussion...it is easier that thinking about spiritual things...
You do the same thing with John 3:16.
"world"="only the elect"
"whosoever"="only the elect."
Don't make fun of Arminians for doing what Calvinists do. Both sides have to twist scripture to stay within the confines of their constructs.
Now, now, John 3:16 doesn't prove either point. It doesn't say ..."whoever believes in him [by way of his own choosing]shall not perish but have eternal life." Nor does it say ..."whoever believes in him [by way of election]shall not perish but have eternal life."
This verse gives the criteria for eternal life, not the route.
Now, why don't you provide a verse that uses the term free will, or choice, or anything that remotley sounds like man's choice has anything to do with his salvation...
I'll help you on this:
The word choice is found in 47 verses. Never in the context of the individual has a choice.
Free will, none found
Now, now, John 3:16 doesn't prove either point. It doesn't say ..."whoever believes in him [by way of his own choosing]shall not perish but have eternal life." Nor does it say ..."whoever believes in him [by way of election]shall not perish but have eternal life."
This verse gives the criteria for eternal life, not the route.
Now, why don't you provide a verse that uses the term free will, or choice, or anything that remotley sounds like man's choice has anything to do with his salvation...
I'll help you on this:
The word choice is found in 47 verses. Never in the context of the individual has a choice.
Free will, none found
Excellent point, grasshopper. Now if the theologians stuck to the critera rather than concentrating on the route, then there would be much more peace on these threads. Frankly I don't really care to emphasize the route portion, as I believe that the ultimate workings of God in this area are somewhat of a mystery. Kind of like the trinity. It is never explained, but when we see God we will know instantly what all that trinity stuff meant.
I prefer to just tell people the criteria for salvation and tell them that they need to follow Jesus. (John 3:16).The rest, as you are well aware, is up to God. Now, whether they are elected because the follow Jesus or whether they follow Jesus because they are elected, should not form the basis for an entire system of theology. Unfortuantly it does. Two systems. On the one side those who contend that God would be an abitrary God if he chooses to save or damn people because of the "good pleasure of his will" and on the other side are those who argume that granting men free will somehow reduces God's sovereignty to the point that he is impotent rather omnipotent. These arguments form the basis for two distinct sytematic theologies, both of which are correct in what they assert, both of which are wrong in what they deny. God chooses those to election accoding to the Good pleasure of his will and God also grants to men the free will to become elect by following the "criteria" as set forth in scripture.
I sit on the fence on this subject as I believe the fence is where the Lord wants us all to sit.
BTW in case you didn't notice, I ignored the rest of your post. :-)
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