The Father and The Son: A Doctrinal Exposition (LDS)

June 30, 1916 | LDS President Joseph F. Smith

[White Mountain]

This doctrinal exposition is posted here for reference and perhaps discussion. P-Marlowe was asking on another thread why Jesus is called the Father and the Son in the Book of Mormon. The above is the official position of the LDS Church on the subject. He is called the Son due to His relationship to the Father, and is called the Father due to His relationship to us and all of creation. Notice how thoroughly grounded in the Scriptures it is, an example to all of us.

Please let me know if any of the Scripture links are missing or incorrect.

[RnMomof7]

BTTT for later read

[White Mountain]

If any of you wish to copy verses from scriptures.lds.org and paste them into a reply, you probably will not want to have any footnote letters in there. To remove them, click on the Display Options link at the top of each page at that site, uncheck the third check box (Footnotes in text), and press the Enter Key (or scroll down and click the OK button). Then the verses will be displayed without footnote letters until you leave the site (wish they would remember it longer).

[RnMomof7]

So also life is eternal, and not created; but life, or the vital force, may be infused into organized matter, though the details of the process have not been revealed unto man.

So all men are eternal and god (if one defines god as having no beginning and no end)

There is no "creation " of new life ..simply a reorganization of existing matter?? ( that is as far as I read so far WM cause I can not get beyond that )

[White Mountain]

>> So all men are eternal

The elements are eternal, intelligence is eternal, we were all in the beginning with God, we were not created out of nothing when we were born here. That is not how the word "create" should be understood.

>> and god (if one defines god as having no beginning and no end)

That's right. God has no beginning and no end.

>> There is no "creation " of new life ..simply a reorganization of existing matter??

We came here to be added upon. Our spirits were clothed with element, a physical nature, which, though we lay it down at death, we continue to live as spirits, as you know, and then in the resurrection, we shall receive our physical bodies again, as Jesus did, in immortal, glorified form, never to die again, or be sick, or in pain, or hungry, or cold.

[RnMomof7]

We have traditionally defined one of God Characterisitcs as that He has no begenning and no end..But in LDS Theology actually that would not then be specific to God?

What is it in the spirit nature that is lacking (I am not sure if that is clear) ..Why is not spirit existance sufficent? Are there any that would choose to remain spirits?

Does an intelligence desire to become a spirit or is it a natural progression?

[White Mountain]

>> We have traditionally defined one of God Characterisitcs as that He has no begenning and no end..But in LDS Theology actually that would not then be specific to God?

As I said in #5: God has no beginning and no end.

In your mind, birth equals creation out of nothing. It wasn't that way with Jesus. It wasn't that way with us, either our physical birth here or our spirit birth before this world was.

Since you keep bringing it up, though, I will quote a few more verses:

Deuteronomy 33:27
27 The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms: ...

Psalms 90:2
2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

Romans 8:29
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 4:35
35 Yea, I know that God will give liberally to him that asketh. Yea, my God will give me, if I ask not amiss; therefore I will lift up my voice unto thee; yea, I will cry unto thee, my God, the rock of my righteousness. Behold, my voice shall forever ascend up unto thee, my rock and mine everlasting God. Amen.

Book of Mormon, Moroni 7:22
22 For behold, God knowing all things, being from everlasting to everlasting, behold, he sent angels to minister unto the children of men, to make manifest concerning the coming of Christ; and in Christ there should come every good thing.

D&C 20:17
17 By these things we know that there is a God in heaven, who is infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting the same unchangeable God, the framer of heaven and earth, and all things which are in them;

>> What is it in the spirit nature that is lacking (I am not sure if that is clear) ..Why is not spirit existance sufficent? Are there any that would choose to remain spirits? Does an intelligence desire to become a spirit

Very good questions. We used to know all about it, but forgot those things when we were born here. When we come to understand them again, it will be like remembering. It won't be like learning them for the first time.

D&C 45:17
17 For as ye have looked upon the long absence of your spirits from your bodies to be a bondage, I will show unto you how the day of redemption shall come, and also the restoration of the scattered Israel.

D&C 138:50
50 For the dead had looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage.

[RnMomof7]

My question was that the quality or characteristic of no beginning no end is not unique to God??

[RnMomof7]

I have a little more time right now so I thought I would come back to this

WM .. How can matter be uncreated?

If one believes in evolution one has assumptions that there was some matter that pre existed the life form we now know

Is there any biblical passages that indicate a pre existant form for men? What is the original source for the LDS belief in that ?

Could there have been a "super God" (only words I can think of) that prexisted God and that created the intelligences..He could be the Father God of the Father???

I also have an interest in the LDS defination of "angels" one time I think Sharon and I started to talk about it and I got side tracked..Is that related in your mind to the intelligences?

Thanks for a good "off the path "discussion

[ponyespresso]

In your mind, birth equals creation out of nothing. It wasn't that way with Jesus. It wasn't that way with us, either our physical birth here or our spirit birth before this world was.

Did you catch that? See, in LDS theology, God has a body of flesh and bones (Doctrine & Covenants 130:22) as does his wife and together they produce spirit offspring in heaven who inhabit human bodies on earth. God and his wife actually were people who lived on another world (Kolob, I think) and attained godhood and were allowed to be gods over our world in their afterlife. Jesus, while being a spirit baby in heaven like you or I, was created on earth through sexual intercourse between God and Mary (yet she maintained her virginity supposedly because it was intercourse with an immortal man).

It's funny, I grew up with a lot of LDS friends and neighbors and they never told me any of this stuff. Wonder why......

[RnMomof7]

I am aware of the doctrines of exhaultation ..I do think it is taught by their missionaries before conversion.But I do not think it is normally discussed otherwise.

[White Mountain]

As Terry (RnMomof7) will tell you, my policy is to stick to the Scriptures. The Scriptures are very forthright in declaring that Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God the Eternal Father, referring to our life here in mortality, and the Firstborn among many brethren (Romans 8:29), referring to our life before this world was. We understand these things literally. We do not try to explain them away in a figurative sense.

Now it is true that "born" and "birth" imply a Mother as well as a Father. Birth also implies a higher manifestation of the conjugal activity by which children are conceived here. But you will notice that the Scriptures do not directly state those things, and are very modest in this area, for example, "Adam knew his wife Eve, and she conceived and bare Cain".

The process by which children come into this world is very sacred indeed. People don't generally go around talking about the way their children were conceived, or the way their parents conceived them, so if people don't bring such things up in ordinary conversation, that's good. It is sacred.

[RnMomof7]

The process by which children come into this world is very sacred indeed. People don't generally go around talking about the way their children were conceived, or the way their parents conceived them,

ohhh man WM you do need to get out more:>)

[restornu]

White Mountain, I tuely believe the lovely things that the Jesus had shown us, is not to be shared with many.

For many are so consumed with themselves they have little concern if they take things that belong to someone else trample on them. and every oportunity they get they pick at, and cause it to bleed and than they go in for the kill.

There are a lot of things when I grew up did not like or thought was phony or weird, but my parents taught me to respect another things and faith, no matter how we personaly felt about it. I was also taught to defend anothers right regardless if I believed the same as another it was the right things to do.

I was also taught to not say things if they gossip and you should know it to be a fact and not just an opinion. I guess I grew up in another time when more of America was civilized to one an other.

I really don't think people realized how much of the world has rub off on them in this day and age and make statements that was not polite in certain compmay.

Would think those who loved the Lord would try to treat their fellowmen with the way they treat fellowmen if the Lord Jesus Christ was present!

Would they make replies to statements such as this

The process by which children come into this world is very sacred indeed. People don't generally go around talking about the way their children were conceived, or the way their parents conceived them,

ohhh man WM you do need to get out more:>)

I don't mean to single out this reply accept it makes the point of being common or part of the world behavior. Some how those who try to walk in the ways of the Lord (that are not perfect)but keep practicing so when the Lord comes the behavior is as natural as breathing! Did not the Lord say now is the time to prepare or to have the proper and enough oil in our lamps! So when the Lord comes we are readly to received HIM!

When you think of it for some it will almost seem like a life time to clean themselve up both in mind and body!

[White Mountain]

Your #9: Is there any biblical passages that indicate a pre existant form for men?

Lots. Consider how these passages have new meaning when you look at them in this way, when you understand that they refer to our life with God, as His children, in heaven, before we were born here.

Num. 16: 22
22 And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?

Just to be sure you don't miss it:

Num. 27: 16
16 Let the LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh, set a man over the congregation,

This refers to the joy we felt when we learned (at a gathering we call the Council in Heaven) that the time had come for God to create this earth and place us here, and for us to receive a physical body, to experience opposition in all things, to learn and grow in ways unique to this mortal condition.

The LORD was asking Job a series of "where were you when" questions, and if Job knew the right answers, he would have said that he was there, present and accounted for, and among those shouting for joy!

Job 38:7
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

This refers to the death of the physical body:

Eccl. 12: 7
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Here is foreordination. Jeremiah was there also, and he was chosen in that great Council in Heaven to be a prophet here in mortality. He was known, sanctified, and (fore)ordained before he was born.

Jer. 1: 5
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Zech. 12: 1
1 THE burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

The disciples thought that our infirmities in this life might be the result of some transgression in pre-earth life, but Jesus said it was not so, it was in preparation for one of His miracles. Infirmities are thorns in our side to struggle with and learn from. By experiencing illness, infirmity, and handicap, we appreciate health and healing all the more.

John 9: 2
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?

Acts 17: 28
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Jesus is the Firstborn of the spirit children of God.

Rom. 8: 29
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

God chose us before the world was to be members of Christ's Church in mortality, if we would heed the call, not just in His mind (because He knew how He would later create us out of nothing), but because we lived with Him and He knew us inside and out and He told us we were chosen.

Eph. 1: 4
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Heb. 12: 9
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

This refers to the rebellion led by Lucifer after the Council in Heaven which is called the War in Heaven in the Book of Revelation.

Jude 1: 6
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Rev. 12: 7
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

There are many links to follow here:

LDS Topical Guide: Man, Antemortal Existence of

[White Mountain]

Your #8: My question was that the quality or characteristic of no beginning no end is not unique to God??

Yes, the elements are eternal, intelligence is eternal.

That which has a beginning must have an end. You hold up a ring. It has no beginning and no end. It is in the likeness of eternity, one eternal round. Cut it, and it has a beginning and an end.

God will give all of us immortality in the resurrection. Immortality has no end. He will give the faithful eternal life, which has no end, and it follows therefrom that our existence had no beginning either.

[drstevej]

WM: Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

This refers to the joy we felt when we learned (at a gathering we call the Council in Heaven) that the time had come for God to create this earth and place us here, and for us to receive a physical body, to experience opposition in all things, to learn and grow in ways unique to this mortal condition.

Drj: Consistent with Hebrew synonymous parallel poetry the two phrases...

the morning stars sang together
the sons of God shouted for joy

... are the same group -- not different groups. It makes more sense that these are angels not angels AND mythical pre-mortals. This is fully consistent with Hebrew poetry which rhymes ideas rather than sounds.


WM: The LORD was asking Job a series of "where were you when" questions, and if Job knew the right answers, he would have said that he was there, present and accounted for, and among those shouting for joy!

Drj: Job didn't know the right answer because in fact he was not there. Your statement again assumes your theology is true (Job was there pre-mortally).

Eisegesis = reading one's presuppositions into the text so we can bring them out with authority!

I must admit your eisegesis is more creative than Joseph Smith's brazen substitution of words in Romans 8:30 and declaring Prophet's Prerogative!

-=-=-
None of the other passages cited prove your point either. Pure eisegesis. I responded to this one for sake of time and will let others shoot down your 'sitting duck' proof texts.

[RnMomof7]

Is there any writings or teachings on the eternal nature of intelligences?

[RnMomof7]

the morning stars sang together the sons of God shouted for joy ... are the same group -- not different groups. It makes more sense that these are angels not angels AND mythical pre-mortals. This is fully consistent with Hebrew poetry which rhymes ideas rather than sounds.

I think they believe that angels are NOT a seperate creation....they are disembodied spirits

[White Mountain]

Your #17: Consistent with Hebrew synonymous parallel poetry the two phrases... the morning stars sang together / the sons of God shouted for joy ... are the same group

That's right, same group. We were the angels (hosts) of heaven before we were born here. Job was there, and you, and I. It gives you an idea how far we have fallen in coming here, what we have fallen from, and to what the atonement of Christ will restore the faithful.