Names of Bishops Calling for Plenary Council Revealed

Catholic World News (sorry, no link!) | 8/7/02 | Antoninus

[Antoninus]

According to a Catholic World News article, the following are the names of the Bishops who are calling for the Plenary Council:

Archbishops Oscar Lipscomb of Atlanta, Georgia; John Vlazny of Portland, Oregon; Daniel Cronin of Hartford, Connecticut; and James Keleher of Kansas City, Kansas. Also signing were Bishops Raymond Burke of LaCrosse, Wisconsin; Robert Morlino of Helena, Montana; Daniel DiNardo of Sioux City, Iowa, and Detroit auxiliary Allen Vigneron.

What do we know about any of these guys? I don't see Bishop Bruskewitz on here, so I'm immediately suspicious.

[american colleen]

The bishops need to feel the heat from us. They need letters, e-mails, and (when possible) some pointed remarks in person. They need to know that important financial support is at risk. They need to feel the heat from Rome too (which might discover some steel in its own spine if they thought the laity was with them and not with AmChurch).

I agree with you 100%, but I think the idea of most Catholics throwing heat on the bishops along with letters and e-mail and in person pointed remarks holds about as much appeal as singing during Mass, if you know what I mean!

It is sad that this matters: "[Rome]which might discover some steel in its own spine if they thought the laity was with them and not with AmChurch" - because it shouldn't. I hope you are wrong, but since it is you, I'm afraid maybe you are right.

I'm probably cold and callous, but I say, either you are with us, or your agin' us, and that is that. I'm sick of not knowing which end is up.

[american colleen]

Just do it. Choose. NOW. I am sick and tired of the shuffle.

I'll second that!

I like your "kinder, gentler" self much better!

[Desdemona]

"holds about as much appeal as singing during Mass, if you know what I mean!"

Huh? Colleen, singing is congregational participation during Mass, you know. As members of the congregation it's your duty to sing (smart allick switch off).

And CG thinks this might interfere with football season.

While I ponder the significance of football (I start paying attention in December and am really sick of it by Christmas, normally), I'm wondering why there is so much consternation about this. Does anybody actually think it's going to happen?

[ninenot]

I have heard same about Atlanta's Bishop. Straight shooter, part of the Church.

Occasionally, Eastsider gets onto a tangent. Maybe a result of summer onset of dengue fever, or something.

[eastsider]

To the extent that any bishop supports a banned or non-approved "gay" ministry -- be it Dignity, New Ways Ministry, or one of the myriad diocesan "gay" ministries that were spawned by "Always Our Children" -- by allowing his priests to celebrate Masses for them is following the secular line, not traditional Catholic teaching. That includes my own bishop, Cardinal Egan.

The word "gay" is secular, not religious. If someone comes up to the altar wearing a rainbow sash, or sporting a button saying, "Kiss me, I'm Gay," or otherwise identifying himself as believing and teaching that same-sex behavior is morally neutral, I would expect that person to be denied communion. Absent such an identifier, however, there's no way of knowing whether someone who presents himself for communion teaches (through word or deed) something contrary to moral truth.

But that's really besides the point since I'm not addressing the question of how individuals are treated, but whether "gay" ministries are tolerated. In my own diocese, there was one parish that advertised a "gay" ministry in its Sunday bulletin every week. The pastor has been replaced, and the advertisement no longer runs, so there's no way of knowing at this point whether this parish "gay" ministry has been shut down or is still operating.

Madpro, you indicated that Dignity/Atlanta has chosen to attend the regular Masses at the Catholic Shrine instead of holding separate Masses. Does the Shrine advertise this in their bulletin by mentioning Dignity or "gay" Catholics? IOW, do you know why Dignity/Atlanta does not hold separate Masses?

As for my research, I have spent more time on this topic than I care to admit, and stand by my analysis, imperfect though it may be. I agree, however, that the method I have devised is just one way of looking at these bishops sympathies and should not be read as the last word on the subject. I also agree with your criticism concerning the characterization "gay friendly" -- it is far too proactive -- and will cheerfully change it to "gay" tolerant.

[aconservaguy]

thanks for the ping. i read about this in my local paper. Unless I read wrong, it looks like a good deal.

[american colleen]

I'm wondering why there is so much consternation about this. Does anybody actually think it's going to happen?

I think most of us are sick of screwing around (not literally, of course).

I hope it does happen and then we can deluge them with phone calls, e-mails and letters begging them to adhere to the teachings of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church that they say they belong to.

I was a pretty big Patriot's fan last February...

[american colleen]

Ebola or beri-beri, I'm pretty sure.

[Domestic Church]

I don't know about the juridical angle but Baltimore has always been referred to as the Primatial See in this country. That doesn't necessarily mean it has any patriarchial jurisdiction it is just the term denoting that it is the first. I think it might be a matter of tradition. This is why the olds Catechism was called the Baltimore Catechism ...out of deference to the Primatial See and the locale of its origin. Does anyone know if the Plenary Council back in 1884 was held in Baltimore?

[Mike Fieschko]

Does anyone know if the Plenary Council back in 1884 was held in Baltimore?

All three plenary councils held in the USA were held in Baltimore.

I may be wildly mistaken, but I don't think that a primatial bishop has any special authority over bishops outside his diocese. It's entirely a title of honor.

[Mike Fieschko]

I was a pretty big Patriot's fan last February...

As in

'Hope springs eternal in the human breast;
Man never Is, but always To be blest:
The soul, uneasy and confin'd from home,
Rests and expatiates in a life to come.'

??

Alexander Pope, An Essay on Man

[St.Chuck]

Good call. (Here's a link for those unfamiliar with the Delphi technique.)

Thanks for that link. The Delphi technique is employed by Richard Vosko.

[Antoninus]

There have been priestly pedophiles in ALL ages.

Of course, you're now going to cite for me the documentation showing that a pedophile problem similar to the one we have now existed in the 7th century Church.

[a history buff]

You want my opinion? The bishops need to feel the heat from us. They need letters, e-mails, and (when possible) some pointed remarks in person. They need to know that important financial support is at risk. They need to feel the heat from Rome too (which might discover some steel in its own spine if they thought the laity was with them and not with AmChurch).

As I understand it, before Thailand went "democratic" most power was vested in the army, whose officers were split according to year they graduated from the military academy. Thus one way for foreign diplomats to read the tea leaves was to carefully watch which graduates of which year were given which postings.

As we've seen on from freeper observations, some bathhouse seminaries turned out clusters of fag-priests. Pardon the term, but when the likes of a Shanley is allowed to destroy children because he knows where such skeletons are buried, it's appropriate to use acerbic terms.

With today's relational databases, the cheap cost of computing and the Catholic directory, or whatever the annual listing of eccelesiastics in the United States is called, and a little statistics, it should be possible to analyze for trends and determine a likelihood that a particular priest is compromised by such behavior. Thus a priest active in the AIDS ministry who's been shuttled between 8 dioceses would generate more red flags than one who'se spent much of his life in one parish, and is more While this would not prove anything, nor should it, it would hold the bishop's feet to the fire in choosing successors. In my diocese, I believe my bishop was chosen less for his spirituality, than his blindness out of one eye.

Perhaps the K of C could do this?

[Catholicguy]

And CG thinks this might interfere with football season

LOL. I was joking. American Colleen was right, my "kinder nad gentler" approach is paying dividends :)

[Catholicguy]

I was a pretty big Patriot's fan last February...

I am Secretary of War for Raider Nation. We all know that was a fumble. Plans have been formulated, agreements entered into, money has changed hands, and wheels have been set in motion in a complicated, bizaree and insane plan that will, finally, expose the criminal conspiracy that repeatedly denies the Raiders their just dues....BWAHAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!

[Desdemona]

"I was a pretty big Patriot's fan last February..."

That's a sore subject here in Ramsville, where some of us were scheduled to be parade marshalls for the victory parade, meaning the green side of the baracades. It was so depressing.

[ninenot]

Let's be cautiously Christian about the issue. The choir director/organist at my Parish (and a long-time friend of mine) is homosexual. He's also (to my knowledge) leading an exemplary life--certainly no 'public' scandals, nor seemingly even 'private' ones.

Now I am not in any way, shape, or form encouraging to the 'gay' agenda--but is being socially friendly "gay"-friendly?

Rather have them IN the Church than out--as long as they are trying to do the right things. (I try, too--sometimes fail.)

[Sock]

Let's be cautiously Christian about the issue. The choir director/organist at my Parish (and a long-time friend of mine) is homosexual.

I am not trying to put you on the spot, but I would sincerely like to ask you a question about this man. Do you personally (without reference to the 1961 directive from the Vatican) believe that he would be a suitable candidate for the priesthood if he were interested and if all the other predisposing qualities were present in him?

Thanks in advance.

[eastsider]

Good morning, ninenot : )

Same-sex attraction per se is not the issue. What is the issue, IMO, is whether groups of Catholics with same-sex attraction conform with Church teaching that same-sex attraction is intrinsically disordered -- as Courage does -- or whether they conform with the secular teaching that same-sex attraction is the sexual equivalent of being left-handed -- as Dignity does. The consequence of conforming to the secular position is that, if same-sex attraction is not intrinsically disordered, then same-sex behavior is necessarily not intrinsically disordered. This is contrary to Church teaching, and accommodating groups like Dignity is as contrary to Church teaching as accommodating groups of Catholics who believe that polygamy is not intrinsically disordered would be.

It's one one thing to try to do the right thing and to fail, but to conform one's conscience to a teaching that is contrary to truth is not only not even trying, but it is in fact a complete denial that there is any objectively right thing to do. There is plenty of room in the Church for one more sinner; however, there is no room for those who would have the rest of us trade the truth for a lie.