God failed?

[A.J.Armitage]

I went down to Boystown earlier today.

We were planning to go somewhere else, but we spent so much time getting sushi it was too late, so we went to The Alley instead. The Alley is, as the first line indicates, in Boystown, which is the Chicago gay district. There was parking in The Alley's alley, so we entered via the back door past stacks of free publications (gay and alternative newspapers and old copies of the Onion). The Alley is... different. It's basically a kind of all purpose store for punks, goths, and other people who're unique, just like everyone else they hang out with. It's got odd decorations, clothes, and so on.

One of the T-shirts had a picture of Anton LeVay, with the motto: GOD FAILED.

The shirt wasn't very unusual there; a large proportion of them were blasphemous. But that shirt, I think, is interesting. (Hence this post.)

I'd bet the person who made it never has never encountered anything other than Arminianism. And viewing things from the perspective of the Arminian construct, what other conclusion could there be?

In Arminianism, God had everything great until, whoops, the top angel started getting uppity and started a civil war in Heaven, which, presumably, God didn't want.

So then God creates two perfect people, but can't stop them from being corrupted by the former top angel. So, in spite of the fact that God doesn't want this to be the case, all their decendents turn out bad.

So in a last ditch effort, God personally becomes one and dies to save them all. But He doesn't save them all. He can't even manage to save most of them. His death was mostly just wasted. At the end, He'll be FORCED to throw them in the lake of fire. Assuming, of course, that Someone with His track record can manage to pull off something like making it all happen like it says in the book.

If you believe all that, how could God not be called a failure? If Arminianism is true, God's existence is one of constant frustration. Failure after failure after failure.

That's not my God, and it isn't the God of the Bible.

[A.J.Armitage]

Arbitrary is not random. It is according to God's will, not chance.

[Pistias]

Arbitrary is not random

I think in common parlance that's exactly what it is, but for the sake of argument let's ignore that. Then there's a reason some are saved and others aren't that has nothing to do with the soul of the person saved or damned?

[RnMomof7]

"I'll take the God who is a failure every time."

All Arminians have a god in their own image. This is nothing new. :D

LOL LOL...........Can you imagine wanting a God that is a failure? All the easier to control huh?

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

I find it hard to believe that the Logon is random. 59 posted on 7/28/02 9:17 PM Pacific by Pistias

I'm assuming that you mean "Logos".

There's a difference between "random" and "arbitrary", and "gratuitous".

Random and/or Arbitrary implies that I am undertaking a course of action for no reason whatsoever. Gratuitous simply means that I am undertaking a course of action for my own reasons, to which you are not necessarily privy. As such, it may certainly look "random" or "arbitrary" to you; and, if your opinion on the subject is (no offense) not of great concern to me, I may not be particularly bothered by the fact that it looks "random" or "arbitrary" to you. Meaning no offense, who asked you? ;-)

Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? (Romans 9: 18-21)

To call God "random" or "arbitrary" is to commit the Prideful sin of Presumption. If one is not, in himself, Omniscient... then how could one claim to know that God is "arbitrary" in His dispensations??

Grace is not "random" or "arbitrary", but it is certainly gratuitous -- dispensed on the basis of God's own ineffable reasons, not referenced to any characteristic of the Object whatsoever.

"Arbitrary" means that Grace is dispensed without Reason.
"Gratuitous" means that Grace is dispensed for Reasons which are not at all conditioned upon any merits or demerits of the Object of Grace.

Grace may not be "arbitrary", but it is certainly gratuitous**. If it were not so, it would not be Grace, but DEBT. (And God owes us nothing)

---

** -- don't let my terminology here confuse you with the modern definition of "gratuity", i.e., A favor or gift given in return for service. The old Johnathan Swift definition is better: Something given freely or without recompense; a free gift; a present. A Grace is not arbitrary or random, but it is dispensed without reference to to the Merits of the Object.

Only if one believes that "Man is the Measure of All Things" would one believe that a gratuitous dispensation must necessarily be a random or arbitrary dispensation. However, if the Bible teaches us anything, it certainly teaches that Man IS NOT the measure of all things.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

I find it hard to believe that the Logon is random. 59 posted on 7/28/02 9:17 PM Pacific by Pistias

I'm assuming that you mean "Logos".

There's a difference between "random" and "arbitrary", and "gratuitous".

Random and/or Arbitrary implies that I am undertaking a course of action for no reason whatsoever. Gratuitous simply means that I am undertaking a course of action for my own reasons, to which you are not necessarily privy. As such, it may certainly look "random" or "arbitrary" to you; and, if your opinion on the subject is (no offense) not of great concern to me, I may not be particularly bothered by the fact that it looks "random" or "arbitrary" to you. Meaning no offense, who asked you? ;-)

Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? (Romans 9: 18-21)

To call God "random" or "arbitrary" is to commit the Prideful sin of Presumption. If one is not, in himself, Omniscient... then how could one claim to know that God is "arbitrary" in His dispensations??

Grace is not "random" or "arbitrary", but it is certainly gratuitous -- dispensed on the basis of God's own ineffable reasons, not referenced to any characteristic of the Object whatsoever.

"Arbitrary" means that Grace is dispensed without Reason.
"Gratuitous" means that Grace is dispensed for Reasons which are not at all conditioned upon any merits or demerits of the Object of Grace.

Grace may not be "arbitrary", but it is certainly gratuitous**. If it were not so, it would not be Grace, but DEBT. (And God owes us nothing)

---

** -- don't let my terminology here confuse you with the modern definition of "gratuity", i.e., A favor or gift given in return for service. The old Johnathan Swift definition is better: Something given freely or without recompense; a free gift; a present. A Grace is not arbitrary or random, but it is dispensed without reference to to the Merits of the Object.

Only if one believes that "Man is the Measure of All Things" would one believe that a gratuitous dispensation must necessarily be a random or arbitrary dispensation. However, if the Bible teaches us anything, it certainly teaches that Man IS NOT the measure of all things.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

This is a great little article, by the way, and your skill as a Writer is constantly improving.

You make thoughtful, trenchant points, and are learning to do so employing a spartan economy of verbiage to accomplish your purpose. This is a supremely useful literary skill, as it allows you to wax locquacious if and when you need to -- rather than just running your mouth constantly (example: the typical OP post) and making the same argument in 200 words which you could just as well make in 20.

Ar your current rate of improvement, in about 10 years Joe Sobran** will have to watch his back -- there's a new kid in town.

---

** Note -- the fact that Joe Sobran has a strange and somewhat-obsessive opposition to Zionism in general and Israel in particular, does not change the plain fact that he is the finest Word-Smith in the ranks of the Pundit Brigade today. We all have our idiosyncracies; Sobran's obsession with Israel is his.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Incidentally, your Die Krupps comp tape (actually two extended-play tapes... I'm taping off like a third of all the Die Krupps I own) is one-half done.

Good stuff, maynard. Although I rather doubt the folks at the Record Store there in boystown would appreciate the Lyrics of "Taste of Taboo" (Die Krupps, Paradise Now, 1997). A snippet...

A need so joyful, a joy so shameful
A shame so lustful, the lust so needful

Forbidden desires, craving for more
Unknown pleasures... willing to sin for
The lack of perfection - so weak the Will
The needed injection, the ultimate thrill

The burning flesh - the sensitive skin
The destroying fire... comes from within

Dangerous games, playing russian roulette
When your life is at stake - how far can you get?

We're united in hell - and we're paying the price
Living for sins - and dying for vice.

We're bent - we're branded. Forever, we're stranded.

That's what it does to you - the taste of taboo
Upside down it turns you - the taste of taboo

A little to close to comfort for the "God Failed" crowd, I suspect, if they read the lyrics closely. Heck -- aside from that one lyric on "Fatherland" which implies that Die Krupps are Lutherans -- I doubt that even they really "get" what their own lyrics are saying. No matter; God can use the mouth of Balaam's mule to speak, if He sees fit; it's really a great song, whether or not Die Krupps themselves realize it.

[rwfromkansas]

John 8:33-36
"33 They answered him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?"
34 Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.
35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever.
36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed."

Everyone sins before they are saved and therefore, everyone is a slave to sin. We can't escape on our own; the Holy Spirit has to come and change our hearts to cause us to escape our sin. Once converted, we are free and even though we still will sin sometimes, Jesus has covered up that sin and imputes righteousness to us.


Rom 6:17-18
17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted.
18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.


1 Cor 2:14
14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.


Ps 51:5
5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
(NIV)



Rom 5:12
12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned--
(NIV)


Eph 2:1-5
1 As for you, you were DEAD in your transgressions and sins,
2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.
3 ALL of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the REST, we were by nature objects of wrath.
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
5 MADE us alive with Christ EVEN WHEN we were dead in transgressions-- it is by grace you have been saved.

[ponyespresso]

You take a weak dog begging like a puppy dog. I take a God that is sovereign and ALWAYS ACCOMPLISHES HIS WILL.

Is it God's will that some would be damned? In fact, some would be created just to be damned? That is no God, that is a horror show. No, 2 Peter 3:9, Revelation 3:20, John 3:16 and many other verses reveal to us that God has made a way for salvation, for everyone.

Now, understand this. We are living in a time of grace. There will be a time when God says, "Enough". And that will be a horrible, terrible time, where all of creation will know the infinite, immutable and perfect justice of God.

Even before Christ came and died for our sins, men were without excuse, for the light of creation and the light of conceince spoke to men (Romans Chapters 1 & 2). Then the very light of God Himself came into the world, but men loved the darkness because their deeds were evil. And soon, Christ will come again, and EVERY knee shall bow and EVERY tounge shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Here, without debate friends, all will mean all.

Then, for those who overcame, as it says over and over again in Revelation, not those who were predestined, not those who were elect, but for those who, day in and day out were confronted with a choice of a wide path towards destruction or the narrow path towards salvation, those who overcame and chose to share in the death of Christ, those will be the ones who will see everlasting life.

You can mock my belief in God's mercy as being like a "weak dog begging", but I believe in grace freely given and freely received. If you are so myopic and constrained to even suggest that grace equals weakness, then so be it.

I just don't see any scripture that says, "For God so controlled the world that, for those few He predestined, He sent his only begotten Son, so that a few, who had no choice in the matter anyway, would not perish but have everlasting life."

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

And yet, does it not seem cruel to create a being destined for eternal torment without chance of salvation? Is it cruel for God?

God did not create anyone destined for eternal torment without chance of salvation? We all have a chance at salvation. We all have a choice. Is it cruel to give your children rules with a clear understanding of what will happen if they don't follow the rules.

Becky

[Jerry_M]

"The fact that one is doomed is a travesty of cruelty, if they have no chance to avoid it."

They have a chance to avoid it. In fact, they have two chances:

(1.) They can choose to love the LORD God with all their heart, mind, strength, and being perfectly, as well as loving their neighbor as themself. OR
(2.) They can trust in Jesus Christ, and His atoning death, due to the fact that they could not fulfill condition #1 perfectly.

However, no fallen son of Adam wants to do either (1.) or (2.). Thus, God chooses to re-engineer the hearts and wants of some in order to save them. This is called Grace.

(I'm back, had a great trip and hope to catch up on these threads.)

[drstevej]

Welcome back.

[Jerry_M]

Thanks.

I had a look around, and saw that we are discussing the RCC's latest concerning the Jews (strange), xzins insistence that we are wrong (typical), and a thread on "Why I am a Calvinist" that has been overrun by Papists(don't want to go there).

Looks like this is the place to be, at least for now.

[sheltonmac]

"Joe Sobran...is the finest Word-Smith in the ranks of the Pundit Brigade today."

I would have to agree. As to his criticism of Israel, one could argue that it provides a balance to the sordid Zionist love affair espoused by mainstream evangelicals today.

[RnMomof7]

Is it God's will that some would be damned

Can God accomplish HIS will?

[RnMomof7]

Then, for those who overcame, as it says over and over again in Revelation, not those who were predestined, not those who were elect, but for those who, day in and day out were confronted with a choice of a wide path towards destruction or the narrow path towards salvation, those who overcame and chose to share in the death of Christ, those will be the ones who will see everlasting life.

What do you think that term means? Overcome?

[RnMomof7]

God did not create anyone destined for eternal torment without chance of salvation? We all have a chance at salvation. We all have a choice. Is it cruel to give your children rules with a clear understanding of what will happen if they don't follow the rules.

Becky just two points.

First you are talking about YOUR children.Second ..all mankind are NOT God's children

God has made a way for HIS children..

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me and be ye saved all the ends of the earth for I am God an there is none else.

Becky

[RnMomof7]

Christ Himself limits the purpose of His death when He said, "I lay down my life for the sheep." (John 10:14, 15)
* Christ laid His life down for the sheep, His friends (John 15:13), and the Church (Acts 20:28; John 15:13). This cannot include the reprobate.

[CCWoody]

... I'll take the God who is a failure every time.

My own father failed at a lot of things, but I always knew he loved me. And, because of that, I love him. I'll take that over anything, anyday.

You are welcome to your god who is a failure. Why boast about a god who is a failure?

Pro 16:25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof [are] the ways of death.

Some say it is God's will and desire to save all men, yet His will is denied Him and He will be eternally frustrated. These men are wrong and worship at the throne of failure. This is a god who has the respect of no thoughtful man.

Some rightly say that it is God's will and desire to save a multitude and that His counsel and purpose shall stand forever; His thought to every generation. And no man may thwart His will or stay His purpose.