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I find it hard to believe that the Logon is random. 59 posted on 7/28/02 9:17 PM Pacific by Pistias

I'm assuming that you mean "Logos".

There's a difference between "random" and "arbitrary", and "gratuitous".

Random and/or Arbitrary implies that I am undertaking a course of action for no reason whatsoever. Gratuitous simply means that I am undertaking a course of action for my own reasons, to which you are not necessarily privy. As such, it may certainly look "random" or "arbitrary" to you; and, if your opinion on the subject is (no offense) not of great concern to me, I may not be particularly bothered by the fact that it looks "random" or "arbitrary" to you. Meaning no offense, who asked you? ;-)

Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

To call God "random" or "arbitrary" is to commit the Prideful sin of Presumption. If one is not, in himself, Omniscient... then how could one claim to know that God is "arbitrary" in His dispensations??

Grace is not "random" or "arbitrary", but it is certainly gratuitous -- dispensed on the basis of God's own ineffable reasons, not referenced to any characteristic of the Object whatsoever.

"Arbitrary" means that Grace is dispensed without Reason.
"Gratuitous" means that Grace is dispensed for Reasons which are not at all conditioned upon any merits or demerits of the Object of Grace.

Grace may not be "arbitrary", but it is certainly gratuitous**. If it were not so, it would not be Grace, but DEBT. (And God owes us nothing)

** -- don't let my terminology here confuse you with the modern definition of "gratuity", i.e., A favor or gift given in return for service. The old Johnathan Swift definition is better: Something given freely or without recompense; a free gift; a present. A Grace is not arbitrary or random, but it is dispensed without reference to to the Merits of the Object.

Only if one believes that "Man is the Measure of All Things" would one believe that a gratuitous dispensation must necessarily be a random or arbitrary dispensation. However, if the Bible teaches us anything, it certainly teaches that Man IS NOT the measure of all things.

I was under the impression that "Logos" was the Greek for the quality of logic; thus one who "is" logic would be Logon (or is it Logoi? But I thought that's the plural...anyways)

If one is not, in himself, Omniscient... then how could one claim to know that God is "arbitrary" in His dispensations??

How then can one know that Grace is not referenced to any characteristic of the Object whatsoever. ? If there is no reason (whether or not we can see it) why He chooses one over another, then it is an arbitrary choice, i.e., without meaning other than His Will; if there is a reason, what reason could it be but something within the person which He sees as reaching for worthiness?

it certainly teaches that Man IS NOT the measure of all things.

"Seems like He made a pretty crappy thing in man; without help that makes his choices moot, all he's good for is kindling," would be my response if I were to press the matter. I fear I'm in danger of blasphemy, but that's what you get when you give your little creations reason, I suppose.