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Why I am a Calvinist
http://www.apuritansmind.com/TULIP/WhyIAmACalvinist.htm ^ | 7/27/02 | C. Matthew McMahon

Posted on 07/27/2002 8:46:57 PM PDT by RnMomof7

Why I am a Calvinist

by C. Matthew McMahon

    There are a variety of theological persuasions in the world. One might say there are too many of them. We may go through denomination after denomination and find a great variety of beliefs and doctrines concerning things about God, things about Christ, things about man and so on. Yet these ideologies are but ripples from the great stone of the Gospel which was plunged into the lake of humanity.

    All theological persuasions are not perfect. It is impossible that any theological system of doctrine be perfect for if it was perfect it would be the Scriptures themselves; for only the Word of God is inerrant, or without error. Man has undertaken the task, as commanded by God (2 Tim. 2:15), to understand God’s Word in spite of his lack of ability to understand it perfectly. He strives to apprehend what he can because a good theologian knows he cannot comprehend (or understand totally) everything about the Scriptures. But that gives us no excuse not to try.

    In the endeavor to ascertain right doctrine, various systems have come up throughout church history. There have been the Arians, the Socinians, the Gnostics, the Roman Catholics, the Epicureans, the Docetics, the Pelagians, the Mormons, the Arminians, the Manicheans and so on. These though, should not be considered to be a true systems of right doctrine since each of them denies a major tenant of the Christian religion. One denies the deity of Christ, where another denies the humanity. One says heaven is attained by knowledge alone, another denies that people are sinners. One says God is not sovereign, and another says man is the measure of all things. One says man is God, and another says God is not all powerful. These systems of doctrines are clearly false. They remove or exalt a particular essential attribute, or many essential attributes of Christianity, not to mention adding many things which the Scriptures never teach. So it would rightly be said that they are systems, but it would also be equally fair to say that they are wrong systems.   

  So what is the right system of doctrine? From study, contemplation, and meditation and upon the Word of God, from assessing church history and the movements contained therein, from hearing hundred of speakers on varying subjects, and listening to a plethora of viewpoints on every aspect of the Bible, I rest upon the system of doctrine called "Calvinism."     It is unfortunate for Calvinism that it is called Calvinism. Charles Spurgeon rightly stated that "Calvinism is nothing more than a nickname for Biblical Christianity." He was right. The name is often a warrant for despisement though. People say because we follow a man named Calvin, we are not following God. Does not Paul say in 1 Cor. 1:12, "Now I say this, that each of you says, "I am of Paul," "I am of Apollos," or "I am of Cephas," or I am of Christ." is Christ divided?" Paul is right. We are not to follow after men. We are to follow after God for sectarianism is a sin rebuked by the 1st chapter of 1 Corinthians. But do Calvinists really follow Calvin? No. It is actually wrong to call Calvinists "Calvinist" because they are doing nothing other than using the same body of doctrine that Calvin used, who in turn copied Augustine, who in turn copied the church fathers and they, who in turn, followed Christ and the Apostles. The early church fathers, who lived between 95 AD and 200 AD are just as much Calvinists, for understanding grace, as Augustine was a Calvinist, and as John Calvin was a Calvinist. Calvinism is nothing more than a label to show what view one holds upon the Scriptures, not upon a certain man. Someone may say, "That is not true. If you are a Calvinist, then you follow the teachings of Calvin and his interpretation of the Bible." Let us see if this is a worthy set of propositions. Because at the outset, they prove of necessity, nothing of the kind.

    When I was 21, I had finished 2 years of Bible college. I went to an Arminian School, learned Arminian doctrine, and read Arminian books. I had no previous learning in religion until I attended that school, so I was indoctrinated in that theology without ever knowing whether it was true or false. In my naïveté I believed what I was taught (Surely not to question doctrine was my own mistake, but being indoctrinated in that way helped me to understand more about what I believe now. So it was the providence of God which kept me in my sin of false doctrine for a time.) Not too long after my second year, a friend of mine, who believed the doctrines of grace Calvinist began to challenge me on many of my "biblical" doctrines. I had a well rounded handle on the doctrine I possessed and propagated it thoroughly among my friends at school. But when this young man challenged me as he did, I was not able to refute him. The reason I was not able to refute his arguments had nothing to do with not understanding my own doctrine, for I did. But he came at me with something I did not expect; the Bible. He proposed a whole new system of doctrine which ran completely contrary to my own beliefs. My understanding of sin was so unbiblical that when he told me to read Romans 3:10-18, I was taken back by Paul’s poignant words. I was challenged by the very book I thought I understood. My views of man, Christ, God, salvation, sin, sovereignty, the will, and others were so warped and twisted that my young friend didn’t even need to rebuke me, for the Scriptures were doing it quite well. I had understood doctrine, it was just not the doctrine of the Bible.

    So over the next summer, because of that day and that particular challenge of my friend, I devoted my time to reading through the entire Bible and endeavor to take it as it stood rather than what I wanted to read into it. My prayer was that the Lord would teach me His word by the power of the Holy Spirit so that I would know what it said rather than what I wanted it to say. After three months my views on man, Christ, God, sin, salvation and the like were radically transformed. (you would be amazed at what the Spirit of God will do with such a prayer and a simple reading of the Bible.) The point is this, my theology came out Calvinist without ever knowing what Calvinism was. I had not known what Calvin taught or that he was even a person. But my theology reflected nonetheless. The study of the Word of God transformed me. The Scriptures taught me, instead of me trying to teach it. So we see that being a Calvinist is not following after one man, but submitting under the authority of the Bible.

    Why would someone want to be a Calvinist? Calvinism is not adherence to a person, but to a set of beliefs which are rightly in accord with the Bible. People who want to be right in their understanding of the doctrines of the Bible, adhere to Calvinism. Calvinism is not perfect. It is a system of doctrine worked over and over by countless men since the time of Christ. It will never be perfect because it is not inspired by God. So why should we believe Calvinism over and above other systems of doctrines? Because if we were to determine what system of doctrine hits closest to the bulls-eye of the Scriptures, Calvinism would be the first outer ring. Any system of doctrine which does serious damage to the doctrines of man, Christ, God, sin and salvation, cannot be considered worthy of our attention as Christians. And there is no system of doctrine which covers all these so Biblically as Calvinism.

    What does Calvinism teach? Calvinism can be divided up into hundreds of points. There are a variety of propositions and ideas which are woven into the fabric of Calvinism. But if we were to concisely describe the simplistic form of Calvinism, we would look at the acronym T.U.L.I.P.: Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace and Perseverance of the Saints.

    The first doctrine of grace is Total Depravity.  Total depravity keeps us humble. It states that man is totally and completely a sinner; heart, soul, mind and body, who can do no righteous deed. The image of God is so marred and twisted by the fall of Adam that every person who is conceived is at that point at enmity with God. They are enemies of God, they hate God, and they would even kill God if he showed up in their living room. As a matter of fact, when the Lord Jesus Christ came down to earth, they killed him.

Total Depravity is proven by both the Old and New Testaments: Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-18. After one understands that he is a sinner who cannot by his own power come to faith, and that he has lost everything which would enable him to come to Christ because of the Fall and of his sin, then he comes to see Unconditional Election (Second doctrine). Man, being sinful cannot choose to follow God because he hates God. So God must remove the heart of stone and replace it with a heart of flesh. God chooses man. He unconditionally, not based upon anything a man can do which is good or evil, elects people to everlasting life. Its God’s job to save, and our job to praise Him for saving us. The Scriptures shows this doctrine emphatically: Malachi 1:2; Romans 8:29; Romans 9:1ff; Ephesians 1:3ff.

    How does God save us? Yes, He elects us, but what is the basis for our election? It is not our work, but Christ’s work. God sends His Son to die for everyone whom He elects. The Son pays the price, and the debt is removed. When Jesus dies on the cross He secures salvation for everyone He dies for. And the work of Christ’s death and resurrection is transferred at that time to the account of all those who will be saved through Him. Jesus comes to die for God’s chosen people, His treasured possession. In this way the atonement is limited in scope but not in power (Third Doctrine).   The Scriptures teach us this doctrine as well; Isaiah 53:1ff; Matthew 1:21; John 10:1ff; Acts 20:28; Ephesians 5:25.

    The fourth doctrine of grace, or Calvinistic doctrine, is Irresistible Grace. If Jesus dies for the elect, and God unconditionally elects all those depraved people whom He calls His own, the regenerating power of the Spirit of God will not fail. Regeneration is where the Spirit changes the old heart of stone to a beating heart of flesh. And He does this prior to our faith. We believe on Christ after our sinful depraved souls are given the new capability to believe through the renewing power of God’s Spirit. His grace is then called irresistible, not because we believe against our will kicking and screaming, but our hearts are inclined to believe, so we love to believe and we go to Christ willingly. The Scriptures show us this in Psalms 51:10; 110:3; Jer. 31:33ff; John 3:2ff; Romans 2:29; Ephesians 2:8-10; Philippians 1:29; and 2:13.

    The last main point of God’s grace seen so vividly in the doctrines of Calvinism is Perseverance of the Saints. All who are redeemed from their depraved states, all whom Christ came to ransom from death and pay the price to redeem from God’s wrath, all whom the Spirit irresistible touches with His grace, and all those who are unconditionally elected to eternal life will persevere to the end. They will sin, yes. But they will never fall away from grace. This does not give us a license to sin, for those who are truly changed are changed and have a new desire and new nature which releases them from the that the old depraved nature had on them. These saints persevere because God continually upholds them through the grace of Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit. They are God’s temples, His residing place. God dwells in the spirit of a man’s renewed heart. This, in and of itself, is an amazing thing!! And does the Scripture show us this doctrine? More than we could imagine: Phil. 1:6; Romans 8:30; John 10:28-29; John 17:2, 6, 9, 24; 1 Thess. 5:23.

    What doctrines am I rejecting as a Calvinist? I am rejecting everything that "changes the truth of God for a lie, and denies Jesus Christ as our only Sovereign and Lord (Jude 4)." I am rejecting anything which would rise up and call itself a Gospel which is no gospel at all. I reject anything which exalts man to a place and position where he ought not to be, and decreases the grace of Christ. I reject anything which makes God a cosmic bell-hop tending to the commands and demands of sinful men as another gospel.

I reject anything which removes God’s sovereignty to place man as the Sovereign as another gospel. I reject anything which denies the sovereign decrees of God and His electing grace to put salvation into the hands of sinful men as another gospel. I reject anything which denies man’s total depravity and exalts his fictitious free will as another gospel. I reject anything which places the perseverance of man to glory in the incapable hands of a sinful man as another gospel.

I reject anything which endeavors to treat God as the great Grandfather in the sky beckoning and pleading with man to be saved as changing the true God into a pitiable wimp. This is another Gospel. I reject anything which denies the atonement of Christ for what it is; a substitutionary atonement on behalf of the elect. If we deny this, we deny the Gospel. I reject anything which makes the cross less than definite salvation for the elect, as another Gospel. I reject anything which is contrary to the Gospel of Jesus Christ as it is preached by Christ in His Word. It is to these Calvinistic doctrines and teachings which all Biblical Christians hold. It is these Calvinistic doctrines of grace which wild horses could in no way drag from me. Especially the wonderful doctrine of Christ’s atonement for His people. And what does Paul say about those who preach, teach, and believe another Gospel? Galatians 1:8 is emphatic, "If we, or an angel from heaven, preach to you any other Gospel than what we have preached, let him be anathema, (or accursed.)" They are not slapped on the wrist and sent to their heavenly rooms. They are cast into the deepest, darkest, hottest section of hell for perverting the truth of God’s Word. We see that the Gospel is something to contend about, and is something we need to be right about.

    When I was 21, I had a form of godliness but I denied its power. I had a system of doctrine which denied Jesus as the only Sovereign and Lord. Yet, God in His mercy forgave that heinous sin of wrong belief. He allowed the scales to fall from my eyes. He allowed me, if you will, to be "born again, again." My mind has been renewed and my life transformed by these doctrines of grace. It is absolutely true what Spurgeon said, that Calvinism is nothing other than a nickname for Biblical Christianity. And until a person understands these doctrines, his walk with God will be a superficial walk. The doctrines of God’s grace, which are the doctrines of Calvinism, plunge us deep within the fountain of God’s mercy and power. Without understanding God’s election of depraved people, how can anyone understand what grace is really about?—they can’t.

Why am I a Calvinist? Because God will not allow me to be anything else. He has opened my eyes to depth beyond my wildest aspirations. He continues to humble me, the rebellious sinner, before His awesome majesty and power. May it be that all of God’s people would be humbled by His grace.

 


TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: calvin; godsglory; grace; sounddoctrine
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To: AnalogReigns; fortheDeclaration; winstonchurchill; ShadowAce; P-Marlowe; Revelation 911; ...
So, it's the old "reborn before you become a believer fallacy." We have put this to rest so many times, that I'm surprised you all aren't getting shy about dealing with it.

Let's just try it the simple way this time:

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become (15) children of God, even (16) to those who believe in His name,

1. They receive/believe
2. God makes them his children (regenerates.)

Your interpretation of the Eph verse is so inadequate. It's a simple survey of the salvation history of each believer in Ephesus to whom he is writing. (1) They were lost (dead in trespasses) and (2) now they're saved (made us alive.) That doesn't change the order of salvation in Jn 1:12 even one whit. You do greatly err. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)... (Eph. 2:4,5)

201 posted on 07/29/2002 1:42:49 PM PDT by xzins
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To: Polycarp
AH, Pride, one of those pesky seven deadly sins.
202 posted on 07/29/2002 2:38:57 PM PDT by Wrigley
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To: RnMomof7
I like this post, and as a Calvinist I agree.

However it sounds like a personal statement of belief, without an apologetic designed to convince your typical Arminian.

Like it or not, God in His wisdom has chosen to save a LOT of people through the flawed understanding of the Gospel Arminian theology presents....

As a Calvinist I see it as a big part of my job to present the biblical view (what's called Calvinist) in an as winsome and convincing way possible, in order to help move immature Arminian Christians into a more biblical place...where they can see the majesty of our sovereign God more clearly. I think therefore we should be careful not to be too sweeping in our remarks as most Arminian (as inconsistent to the logic of their beliefs it may be) evangelicals I know believe that Jesus died for their sins...and that they did not earn their salvation....and they also affirm the old creeds (such as the Apostles Creed) therefore I cannot but call them brethren. At the same time I think they have been mis-taught--and are on a slippery slope to the old Roman "faith + deeds = salvation" perversion of the gospel.

The older I get too, the more I see the wisdom of 1st John...which teaches ASSURANCE of salvation is found in how much we love others...and that love itself, is a much higher doctrine than a clear view of exactly how God saves us. Look at Jesus' analysis of the Good Samaritan...THE most heretical believers in God in Jesus day were the Samaritans....THE most orthodox and biblical believers at the time were the party of the Pharisees... and yet it was the despised, half-breed, heretical Samaritan whom Jesus commended...teaching us our actions toward others are even more important than our doctrine.

This doesn't mean doctrine is UNIMPORTANT...it only means in the hierarchy of God's list of priorities, loving others is up near the very top.

'"What commandment is the foremost of all?"

'Jesus answered, "The foremost is, 'HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD;AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.'

"The second is this, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' There is no other commandment greater than these."' (Mk. 12:28-31)

203 posted on 07/29/2002 2:52:59 PM PDT by AnalogReigns
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To: xzins
They're all on this calvinist thread entitle "Why I am a Calvinist."

Even I am fearful that my name here might identify me with the neighborhood. :-)

You were predestined to be here:>)

204 posted on 07/29/2002 2:58:02 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: xzins
Its funny you quote from John, one of the most openly pre-destinarian of all New Testament books. You also forgot (perhaps purposely?) to complete the sentence of John 1:12, namely the very next verse:

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

So to follow your thought, 1-recieved 2-believed 3-born (not from your family) (not from human will) rather born of God.

Last time I checked a baby is conceived and born...NOT of its own choice. Am I right on that? And is the Apostle John right on our spiritual birth too?

I would argue St. Paul's more theological approach in various places--including a whole chapter in Romans 9--follows the ordo solutus rather than the half sentence you quote from John.

205 posted on 07/29/2002 3:10:43 PM PDT by AnalogReigns
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To: RnMomof7
You were predestined to be here:>)

Quit, quit...stop....you'll drive me to drink! :0)

206 posted on 07/29/2002 3:11:38 PM PDT by xzins
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To: AnalogReigns; fortheDeclaration
who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Simply says that God does the "reborning," not any man, as in one's birth from one's mother. The same thing is addressed in Chapter 3 betweem Jesus and Nicodemus. Doesn't change the order of salvation of the verse at all. 1. Receive/believe, (2) Born again (by God)

207 posted on 07/29/2002 3:16:51 PM PDT by xzins
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To: xzins
Quit, quit...stop....you'll drive me to drink! :0)

I will buy wings to go

208 posted on 07/29/2002 3:43:08 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: xzins
And here I thought drinking was your problem with understnding. Well, now I have to find another reason.
209 posted on 07/29/2002 3:43:31 PM PDT by Wrigley
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To: RnMomof7
2Pe 2:20 For if AFTER THEY HAVE ESCAPED THE POLLUTIONS of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, AFTER THEY HAVE KNOWN (IT), to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog {IS} TURNED to his own vomit again; and the sow that WAS washed to her wallowing in the mire.

These may be cute polemical verses to throw at someone but they sure don't support your theory of election and pre-destination!!

If these people escaped the pollutions of the world,knew the way of righteousness, and were washed of their sins in baptism, then how come they returned to the vomit and mire if they were elect and pre-destined???

I suppose you will say that they were never pre-destined, but they surely must have thought they were before they lapsed!

If they can turn back, how do you KNOW that you will not? How do you KNOW that you are one of those pre-destined for glory and not one of those poor fools who accepted Jesus as your Lord and Saviour, received baptism and the remmission of sins, but then whoops, sorry - must have been in the wrong queue?

It is obvious that the first Pope didn't believe in your doctrine of "once saved always saved".
210 posted on 07/29/2002 3:45:07 PM PDT by Tantumergo
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To: xzins
In the classic pattern of Hebrew parallism, John is clearly emphasizing and clarifying his previous statement in John 1:12 when he says in v. 13, " who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. " in a parenthetical statement.

The clear meaning of the statement about our spiritual birth is: Its not by inheritance (as the Jews were fond of thinking), its not due to our own efforts (as everyone is fond of thinking), nor is it even due to our own will (as everyone is ESPECIALLY fond of thinking...) its due to God.

Jesus saves.

Any modification of that foundational thought is a compromise of the Gospel itself.

211 posted on 07/29/2002 3:48:17 PM PDT by AnalogReigns
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To: RnMomof7
Your buffalo wings recipe was freepmail....right? I kept it there for soon use. Even bought about 5 lbs of wings -- they're in the freezer now.
212 posted on 07/29/2002 3:51:08 PM PDT by xzins
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To: Wrigley; RnMomof7; fortheDeclaration; Revelation 911
Nope. I'm one of those lucky souls who was born absolutely unable to handle booze. ONE GLASS of wine makes me so sleepy I go take a nap. I think some of it tastes OK, but I don't drink often at all and that only as a tasting. My wife gets irate if I fall asleep at restaurants or at friends' homes. :-) !!
213 posted on 07/29/2002 3:54:31 PM PDT by xzins
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To: AnalogReigns
Well, God is the author of the rebirth through His power and Jesus does save. We agree on these things.

We disagree on the order. We disagree because our theological frameworks disagree (calvinism vs wesley-arminianism.)

But the w-a position is also the biblical position.

214 posted on 07/29/2002 3:57:55 PM PDT by xzins
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To: xzins
Oh, so you're what is called a cheap date.

I know a couple people like that too, so don't feel alone.

215 posted on 07/29/2002 4:00:45 PM PDT by Wrigley
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To: Tantumergo
2Pe 2:20 For if AFTER THEY HAVE ESCAPED THE POLLUTIONS of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, AFTER THEY HAVE KNOWN (IT), to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog {IS} TURNED to his own vomit again; and the sow that WAS washed to her wallowing in the mire.

No where does this scripture say these men were saved..it says they knew the truth..many men know the truth and refuse it . We are told the church is full of them. that is the purpose of the parable of the wheat and the tares...the tares grow right along side. They may even think they have a saving faith..BUT God knows who are His and he will strip the tares from His field

God allows theses tares to remain for even the reprobate benefit from the word of God ,it is a restraing force on the hearts of even evil men.

"A religious education has restrained many whom the grace of God has not renewed: if we receive the light of the truth, and have a notional knowledge of Christ in our heads, it may be of some present service to us; but we must receive the love of the truth, and hide God’s word in our heart, or it will not sanctify and save us." Matthew Henry

 

It is obvious that the first Pope didn't believe in your doctrine of "once saved always saved".

Really?

1Pe 1:2   Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
    1Pe 1:3   Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
     1Pe 1:4 

  To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
     1Pe 1:5 

  Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Now this sounds to me like the "first Pope "believed in election , predestinatiopn and the persaverence of the saints!

------------------------------------------------

So tell me Tantumergho..what kind of a Calvinist were you? I was singing Tantumergio while you were in diapers I bet

Now I sing

this

216 posted on 07/29/2002 4:13:01 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
Opps correction Now this sounds to me like the "first Pope "believed in election , predestination and the perseverence of the saints!
217 posted on 07/29/2002 4:15:44 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: Tantumergo
If they can turn back, how do you KNOW that you will not? How do you KNOW that you are one of those pre-destined for glory and not one of those poor fools who accepted Jesus as your Lord and Saviour, received baptism and the remmission of sins, but then whoops, sorry - must have been in the wrong queue?

We humans are especially good at lying to ourselves. Anyone who thinks they accepted Jesus, recieved baptism and the remission of sins....but who does NOT love others--SHOULD have no assurance they are truly saved. See I John 1.

Jesus Himself taught there would always be false bretheren or "tares" amoung the wheat. He also taught we shouldn't be too concerned at rooting them out--as such is destructive to the wheat.(Mat. 13:24-30)

God is good, and when we find ourselves believing the good news of Jesus work, AND we see ourselves loving others both in word and deed--we know "He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus." (Phil. 1:6) That assurance is a gift of God.

The trust is not directed at oneself--in a truly prideful way (which perhaps is what is annoying you) rather it looks to Jesus who said: "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand."
(John 10: 27, 28)

Churches always have "tares." Christ predicted it... and those tares even benefit here and now from their association with God and the Church.... St. Peter is here talking to those tares--pleading for them to truly repent and believe. The "holy commandment" they have turned from is the Gospel itself--which they had never yet believed.

Your remark about the "wrong queue" seems to assume Calvinists think God is arbitrary--like blind fate. However we only acknowlege God is loving--and His choices of His people are only a mystery of love.

218 posted on 07/29/2002 4:24:57 PM PDT by AnalogReigns
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To: AnalogReigns
To be clear, in contrast to what is commonly taught in Roman Catholic circles, I'm not saying Faith + Works = Salvation.

Rather I'm saying true Faith=Salvation + Works.

Without the whole equation (and by works here I mean acts of self-sacrificial love) one can and should have no assurance of being a true Christian, regardless of what formal outward steps (signing a card, baptism, taking communion, etc.) one has taken ...

219 posted on 07/29/2002 4:41:22 PM PDT by AnalogReigns
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To: Tantumergo; Polycarp; xzins
Is a Kerry man an Irishman? I guess I'm not then. I liked your post T and I will try to answer but I am quite tired at the moment.

As aChristian, I know that the lamb symbolizes Jesus. Also what a lot of you perhaps do not know, is that the lamb itself was the Egyptian symbol for their God. For the Jews to kill it and eat it in the midst of them was a great insult to them. They bought it on the tenth of the month and they kept it until the 14th of the month. It was an elevation offering. By doing this, God showed His power over their idol.

If you are not a Protestant, but a Catholic, how can you possibly know what goes on in the churches? You have preconceived ideas which really are akin to bigotry and hatred, even xenophobia. (Calvinists here are not openminded either, but mostly they suffer from xzinsphobia.)

Anytime you read a chapter like John 6, good biblical exergesis is to read the whole and try to understand the lesson being taught. John 6:53 is after all that came before it.

There was the feeding of the 5000, and in Mark he makes it plain that the feeding was intended to teach the disciples a lesson which they failed to learn. "Their hearts were hardened" refers to their closed minds, they couldn't understand it.(Mark 6:51-52)The lesson evidently had to do with the person of their Master.

But the further meaning which lies beneath the synoptic record is brought to the surface by John and spelled out in detail. He talks about the bread of life and the manna (John 6:27-34)But Jesus not only gives this bread of life, He is the bread. The bread which He gives is his flesh. (6:51) Now to believe in Christ is not only to give credence to what he says, but it is to be united to him by faith, to participate in his life. It is John's practice when recording Jesus's words or discourses to quote words which have a spiritual meaning and then make the hearers show by their resonse that they failed to grasp that meaning. Jesus answered their protest by pointing out that the words were to be understood spiritually(6:63) Augustine said "Believe, and thou hast eaten". You will notice that the Holy Communion is absent in John but this discourse represents the counterpart to the accounts of what Jesus did and said to the disciples in the upper room. John 6 is not making a direct reference to it but the discourse conveys the same truth in words as the Holy Comunion conveys in action. We take and eat it in remembrance that Christ died for us. And He died once only. We do not want Him humiliated any more, and what you see as Real Presence, we see as Real Presence, for for where a few are gathered together, in His Name, He is there. Now I really must go. Shalom!

220 posted on 07/29/2002 5:24:05 PM PDT by JesseShurun
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