Navy Officer From Iowa Barred From Entering Mormon Temple

A Navy officer from Denmark, Ia., was barred from a Mormon temple in Nauvoo, Ill., on Monday because of his behavior during a previous visit.

Rocky Hulse first toured the new temple of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on May 21. At the end of the tour, he said, he asked a temple official where the cross was located in the church.

You sound like a Holocaust denier. No respectable historian disputes the great amound of death and suffering and injustice inflicted on the early Mormons.

I requested documentation of the claim that thousands of Mormons died as a result of mob action, with the strong implication that they were killed by the mobs. I have had others make the exact same claim to me, but none have ever backed it up with documentation. My meager research tends to indicate that the number actually killed in several decades of strife in the Middle West was under 100. In a period of American history in which over 600,000 died in civil combat, this is not a huge number.

If you have better numbers, I'm willing to accept them. I merely object to hyperbole.

Certainly many died in trekking across the plains to Utah, but that was a tough trip for anybody. Lots of Gentiles died on that route, too. There is a lot of evidence that some of the deaths among Mormons was due to poor planning on the part of the Church. Apparently the handcarts were a particularly poor idea.

None of this is to justify the mobs or their violence. But if you want to use numbers of victims as evidence of the severity of the persecution, you should be willing to back up your claims with facts.

Oh, and in the Middle Ages, Jews killed Christian babies and used their blood for their matzoh, didn't you know?

Two words: Mountain Meadows. Not even two centuries ago, and beyond any practical doubt, organized by the Mormon leadership. We're not talking about Old Testament slaughter of half-human hybrids, were talking about innocent, affluent, and eventually disarmed settlers trying to make passage to California.

Both Islam and the Church of Mormon were established by shifty men of violent disposition at best, dabblers in the occult at worst.

The difference is, followers of the book of Mormon contribute greatly to world, Muslims don't.

It certainly does. "We believe in One God, the Father, the Almighty...and in His only Son, our Lord... and in the Holy Spirit[...]. That's all one statement.

You do violence to the text of your Creed. To state that I believe in the President, and in the Congress, and in the Supreme Court does not inherently mean that these three things in which I believe are One. To take your contention literally would require you to believe that the holy catholic church is also included within the Godhead. It is listed right after the Holy Ghost, with no textual break.

...nor does it specically state that Jesus is God. "and in His only Son, our Lord".

The term "Lord" is not limited either in the Bible or in general use to refer to the deity.

Please don't misunderstand. I realize most Christians approach the Apostle's Creed from a Trinitarian standpoint, and read it from that perspective. My point is that the text itself does not inherently support the dogma. This is undoubtedly why later Creeds, such as that of Nicene, addressed the issue more directly.

My comments are strictly textual and grammatical, not doctrinal as such.

I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth.

And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; he descended into hell; the third day he rose again from the dead; he ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Ghost; the holy catholic* Church; the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting. AMEN.

"I disagree that God changes ("As we are, He was. As He is, we will become")"

If you are going to use quotation marks, please get the quote right, it's "As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become". Christ became 'as man is', walked the earth etc, and through his attonement, we may fullfill his commandment in the Bible to become like Him.

"and believe that this human desire to "be like God" is the same temptation the Serpent offered Eve."

Then why did Christ take it even further?

John 10
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

And why do I get the feeling that you have been shown this before, but choose to instead have the same argument over and over with different Mormons every chance you can, ignoring what was said to you before by others?

"But even though I strongly disagree with many Mormon doctrines"
...and get several of them wrong...

"If you viewed traditional Christianity as sufficient, you wouldn't be trying to "convert" us "gentiles" at all."

Of course. We view traditional Christianity as being quite different from ORIGINAL Christianity. We don't go out and attack other peoples faith as a rule, but I personaly object strongly to having my beliefs misrepresented by people who speak like they know so much when in fact they are just parroting garbage others have fed them.

Part of the problem is that crimes against Mormons were not recorded-for the most part. Why?

On Oct.27,1938 Gov. Boggs of Missouri issued his infamous EXTERMINATION ORDER. In essence it condoned the killing of ALL Mormons residing in Missouri. "...The Mormons must be treated as enemies and must be exterminated or driven from the state, if necessary, for the common good."

It would be very difficult to determine precisely, how many died from mob action, ambush, militia attacks, "irregular" attacks, etc. People still argue over specific number of Holocaust victims. Only natural stats would be imperfect from 100 years prior to that event.

Were Missourians capable of such acts? During the Civil War, acts of corpse mutillation, mass murder of unarmed soldiers (Centralia) and civilians (farmers/ranchers) occured. Many sources. GUERILLA WAR in MISSOURI is one.

Mormons were simply outnumbered, out gunned, and were being hunted down like dogs at the behest of the state. I doubt if anyone back then counted the bodies...

"If you can find a Christian denomination that accepts Mormons as Christians, I'd like to know."

First, their belief that our baptism is not valid is not the same thing as saying we are not Christians, we don't consider their baptisms valid either yet we consider them Christian. Some of these churches work together with us in non-denominational Christian groups working against pornography etc. Second, even if every church in the world said flat out that we were not Christian, why should I care about their opinon? Third, see my post #52.

The difficulty of coming up with numbers from 150 years ago does not help your contention that "thousands" were killed by the mobs. Please note that you were the one who first brought up numbers, not me. I merely requested your backup for what you said.

I realize the Missourians might not have been terribly careful to count dead Mormons. However, one would assume that the Mormons themselves, who nobody throughout their history has accused of being unorganized, would be able to come up with a more accurate number.

Apparently you have a strong emotional need to believe that a great many were killed. I have no desire to disrespect that. Please note that I'm not the one who dragged the dreaded "MMM" into this thread.

I first got into these conversations over a year ago when some Mormons made similar claims and I just wanted actual facts. Defensiveness ensued, enough to make me think something was actually being hidden, perhaps intentionally.

A logical person would expect there to be a plaque at the Mormon Temple listing all those killed by the mobs, not defensiveness and resistance when asked for facts. Unless the facts don't support the propaganda of massive losses to mobs.

BTW, the "extermination order" was never carried out, largely due to forceful objections by gentile Missourians. It was also a direct response to inflammatory statements by Mormon leaders. There was plenty of blame to go around on all sides in that conflict. Peaceful Mormons attacked without cause by vicious Missourians is a very one-sided view, which has become generally accepted because Mormons are deeply interested in the period, and Missourians generally couldn't care less about defending their ancestors.

How can a person reject a prophet of God, and still claim to follow God? they can't, it's a contridiction. Thus those who reject Joseph Smith enter into the celestial Kingdom of God, just the same as those who rejected Moses, or Christ will not.

"The Mormon church also teaches that all men will receive some degree of salvation and that there is no place known as hell."

Not so. We usually refer to it as Outer Darkness, since it is a place of no glory at all, but the idea is the same.

"the church teaches that it ALONE is the only hope for salvation"

In this dispensation, yes. The fullness of the gospel and the priesthood of God are not found anywhere else in this age. Other Christian churches have a portion of the gospel, and other parts totaly of man, and do not have authority of God.

"therefore they do not subscribe to the truth given in John 14:6"

We subscribe to that truth.

"But, given the Mormon belief in 'special revelation' by its elected prophets and apostles,"

They are not elected, they are called of God. The members raise their hands to indicate they support them, but it is not an election.

"Mormon doctrine can change through the years - so it is no suprise that new beliefs and requirements have been added as others have been removed."

No doctrines have been removed. How we put some doctrines into practice has changed, but that's not the same thing.

"Actually I have spent some time on LDS forums as of late..nice folks ,but no two people seem to agree on much doctrine..they all agree they want to "progress " and be gods..but beyond that the doctrine is all over the place..."

I did say on average, and did make it releative to the doctinal ablities of others. It's a fast growing church and there are many people at all points of the learning curve. Most Catholics I know wouldn't even venture to enter such a discussion in the first place.

"No they meant gods..angels are unembodied spirits ..pre or post human existance..once a LDS has gone throught the progression and died..he then awaits his glorified body..at that point he may be a god..(I have been reading:>)"

Sorry, you have more reading to do. An angel is a messenger sent by God, it can be a spirit or a resurected being or even a mortal too.

Also, we expect that there will be much to do after the resurection before we become joint-heirs with Christ.

The Avenging Angels come to mind. Essentially gun-slingers who hunted down those that had slayed Mormons.

Sorry, but this is just a myth. The "Avenging Angels" only appear in one place: Conan Doyle's "A Study in Scarlet," the first "Sherlock Holmes" story to be published.

Conan Doyle based his story on snippets of things he'd read, and admitted years later that he really knew nothing about "Mormons" and wished them no ill; he simply used them as a device in his novel. He actually visited the Church's headquarters in Salt Lake City later in his life, and issued an informal apology for any misconceptions he may have helped promote about the Saints.

So as usual, fact and fiction become intertwined. The "Avenging Angels" idea, as well as the likewise-fictional "Danite Band," likely came from the exploits of Joseph Smith's bodyguards, such as Orrin Porter Rockwell.

Rockwell was a pretty colorful character, and his adventures in Missouri, when he was kidnapped by cronies of Boggs in hopes of using him as bait to lure the Prophet back to Missouri, are pretty interesting to read of themselves.

But there were no "Mormon murderers" except, of course, for the scoundrels who murdered the party at Mountain Meadows. This they did of their own accord, since hatred and the desire for retribution are found in every people (witness the antics of some of the radicals in Israel even today).

You seem to want to twist my words. Please read post #74 which you took so much umbrance with. I never used the word "mob." That was your term, which you introduced in post #79. I never stated anything of the sort of "thousands killed by mobs." Yes, I brought up the numbers of Mormons that DIED. DIED being the key word here. Not KILLED.

The Extermination order was not carried out-because the Mormons fled Missouri. Hence, no Mormons to exterminate. I have no emotional need to misrepresent what I have read.

You have clearly misstated what I have said. As for your reasons? Not interested. But anyone can read post #74.

Good night!

"We non-Mormons .... claim that Christ is sufficient: no DEFICIT to be made up."

Well my question to you then (and I hope you answer it plainly and not try and duck out of it) is who gets that salvation? What divides those who get it from those who don't?

If everyone gets saved, then what difference does it make if I'm a Mormon or not?

If only some, then how does God pick who gets it and who doesn't? Random lottery or something else beyond man's control? If so, again then it makes no difference if I'm a Mormon or not.

Or must the person DO something (accept Christ for example) to recieve that salvation. If so, then you belive the same thing as us, that we must have enough faith to act and if we don't we will not be saved.

If our works are not needed and salvation is by Christ ALONE and nothing else, then being Mormon, Muslim, Pagan etc. can't stop a person from getting salvation either. If so then you are saying you must do something (not become a Mormon, Muslim, Pagan etc.) to get saved.

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