Navy Officer From Iowa Barred From Entering Mormon Temple

Des Moines Register ^ | 6/19/02 | Vess Mitev

[Grig]

"I can find no example of any Christian denomination that has considered the question that accepts Mormons as Christians."

And what make any one of the the arbiter of what religion is or is not christian? Show me one dictionary that defines christian in a way that doesn't fit Mormonism and we'll talk about that, or if you want to wait till we stand to be judged of God to find out, I'm OK with that.

Bottom line is that because of relegious bigotry some individuals crafted a false definition specificy made to exclude us. We do not seek or care for the approval of other churches, only for God's approval. Rejecting the creeds of the middle ages only shows we are not "orthodox" christians. You don't have to be orthodox to be christian. BTW, we Consider orthodox christians to be christians, but they have to be baptized again to join us too.

I won't take time to correct your misrepresntation of our teachings, but anyone who wants to know what we belive can go to www.lds.org or www.mormon.org and get it straight from official sources instead of relying on spin-doctored misrepresentations by the igorant or bigoted.

[Elsie]

Under the direction of His Father,

I see NO 'direction' here.........

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KJV Genesis 1:26-27
26.  And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
 27.  So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

 

KJV Matthew 19:4-6
4.  And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
 5.  And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? (not 'wives')

 

 

KJV Mark 10:6-8
 6.  But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
 7.  For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; (not 'wives')
 8.  And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.

 

KJV Ephesians 4:20-25
 20.  But ye have not so learned Christ;
 21.  If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
 22.  That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
 23.  And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
 24.  And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.  (Not 'the same as God')

 

KJV Colossians 1:15-17
 15.  Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
 16.  For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

 

KJV Hebrews 4:3-4
 3.  For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.  (HE ain't doin' anything NEW!)

[Grig]

"I don't agree with their American pre-history any more than with their theology, but there it is. I've seen the painting.
"

Well, I've seen other churches selling pictures of Christ holding a human heart wrapped in thorns. If you want to treat artwork as doctrine, be fair and do so to all religions.

BTW: the Book of Mormon talks about there being horses in the Americas long before Columbus, people scoffed at that for ages untill they actually discovered it was true.

[Elsie]

The Mormon Temples are not for everyday or even Sabbath worship. They are 'high' Temples used for administering the sacrements only.

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How unusual.........

I've NEVER been in a Church that was not self contained: one stop shopping, if you will.

[Elsie]

And given all that is going on with conventional Christianity lately, I say "thank God for that."

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(Not to worry........ there's enough skeletons in their OWN closets.........)

[Some hope remaining.]

But it also needs to be said that a person can't be a Mormon unless he accepts Joseph Smith as God's prophet. That is the primary distinction between Mormonism and Christianity. The focus of one's belief.

Sure you can be a Mormon if you don't believe. I agree there wouldn't be much point, though.

But I could make a similar claim about any Christian. You wouldn't be much of a Christian if you didn't believe that Moses, Abraham and Jacob were prophets, or that Peter and John were Apostles. Sure, you could still believe in Christ but you'd be throwing out a lot of the Bible.

Believing in a true prophet says nothing about one's focus on Christ. Well, I take that back. It says a lot about one's focus on Christ if you believe in the prophets He has sent rather than "stoning" them.

[Restorer]

Interesting.

The Apostle's Creed you quote does not explicitly define that God is a Trinity, nor does it specically state that Jesus is God.

Yet many claim that belief in these two dogmas is essential to be a Christian.

[donozark]

A non-LDS source states "3,000 Mormons died of sickness and the elements." On the trek west. From PBS:Trail of Hope. Difficult to break down to specificities.

However, the Extermination Order issued by Gov. Boggs of Missouri speaks for itself in terms of how Mormons were dealt with in this state. When they fled Nauvoo, they were sure not to go back into Missouri because of this "shoot on site" mentality. Hence, many froze and suffered greatly as a result of taking the "northern route." Winters in Nebraska/Iowa are harsh even today. Horrendous back then. The fact they fled in February only points out the fear they were under. Homes, farms had been burned. They knew what was coming...Over 800 heavily armed men ultimately attacked Nauvoo.

I wouldn't argue with you that all religions have "things" in their past. The Avenging Angels come to mind. Essentially gun-slingers who hunted down those that had slayed Mormons. However, that was then

Mormons today are a very unique, successful bunch of people. Low rates of alcoholism, welfarism, drug-dependancy,etc. Very healthy-perhaps more so than virtually any other segment of our population. They were stockpiling foodstuffs long before Y2K. They (for the most part) are strong supporters of RKBA. They believe in taking care of oneself and each other of their faith. John Brownings weapons are still in use today, albeit, somewhat modified. Mormons have done much in the field of child care/research. And no one even comes close to them in geneological research.

Lastly, I wouldn't make a good Jack Mormon, just have an interest in history. It was most unfortunate Missouri choose to kick out such an industrious bunch of folks. Perhaps that is why we languished for so many decades...

[Risky Schemer]

Sorry, but that's poppycock. Of course we believe that the Grace of Jesus Christ is necessary for salvation.

Okay, you've just given a prime example of the deception or misdirection possible from a Mormon. Whether it's intentional or not, I don't know.

What I do know is that about the slipperiest son of a gun I have ever known, with regard to discussion of Jesus Christ, faith, and doctrine, was a Mormon. Like you, he spouted phrases that sounded exactly like evangelical, fundamental, Protestant, Bible-believing precepts. He threw out practically word-for-word hijackings of evangelical lingo, and presented himself as a genuine Christian, as it were a born again, blood-bought sinner, saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

It took effort, much effort to pin that rascal down and discover that, though the language was identical, the definitions were different. The meanings were changed. And I remember how purposely deceptive I thought that was. No, from what I could discern, he did not believe that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ (and that alone!), but he deceptively postured as if he did, and used all the cunning, hijacked language to convince people he did!

But most of all what I remember is that I finally discovered the Jesus he spoke of was not the same Jesus of the Bible (though he would argue fiercely and piously that it was). The Mormon "God" is not the same God of the Bible either, for the God of the Bible did not originate as a man like me or you then later become a god (or rather, THE God), doesn't have dust in His veins, and the God of the Bible is in heaven, not some planet called "Kolob".

Another thing I remember about that Mormon rascal is that, as he had no compunction against manipulating or changing the scriptures to his own advantage to suit him, he had no compunction against using and manipulating people to his own gain or advantage. I suspect several women had restraining orders against him (I know personally how he dealt with and treated at least a couple).

I'm not saying all Mormons are like him, but from what I'm picking up on this thread, deceptive use of hijacked evangelical terms and language certainly is common to them!

Again, whether it is intentional or not (by the rank and file) I do not know.

[Elsie]

Salvation........

Non Mormons attest:
Every mormon I've spoken with rejects the belief that salvation is received ONLY by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

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Mormons (this one, anyway) say:" Sorry, but that's poppycock. Of course we believe that the Grace of Jesus Christ is necessary for salvation.

But we don't pick and choose which scriptures we follow, as many sects of Christianity seem to do. We don't ignore the admonition of Christ, to keep His commandments. (And those are... WHAT?)

We realize, though, that no matter how hard we try to do this, we're going to come up short, every time. And it is the grace of our Saviour Jesus Christ that makes up the deficit. Ahha!!! Then why DO anything at all?

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We non-Mormons (who call ourselves Christians) claim that Christ is sufficient: no DEFICIT to be made up.

Or, to use an overused phrase: "What part of ONLY don't you understand?"

[B-Chan]

And what make any one of the[m] the arbiter of what religion is or is not christian?

The authority of Jesus Christ.

And Jesus came into the quarters of Caesarea Philippi: and he asked his disciples, saying: Whom do men say that the Son of man is?

But they said: Some John the Baptist, and other some Elias, and others Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

Jesus saith to them: But whom do you say that I am?

Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God.

And Jesus answering said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven.

And I say to thee: That thou art Peter [i.e. "Rock"]; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven. -- [St. Matthew 16:13-19]

We must hold as of the faith, that out of the Apostolic Roman Church there is no salvation; that she is the only ark of safety, and whosoever is not in her perishes in the deluge; we must also, on the other hand, recognize with certainty that those who are invincible in ignorance of the true religion are not guilty for this in the eyes of the Lord. And who would presume to mark out the limits of this ignorance according to the character and diversity of peoples, countries, minds and the rest? -- [Pius IX, allocution, 9 December 1854]

It is known to us and to you that those who are in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion, but who observe carefully the natural law, and the precepts graven by God upon the hearts of all men, and who being disposed to obey God lead an honest and upright life, may, aided by the light of divine grace, attain to eternal life; for God who sees clearly, searches and knows the heart, the disposition, the thoughts and intentions of each, in His supreme mercy and goodness by no means permits that anyone suffer eternal punishment, who has not of his own free will fallen into sin. -- [Encyclical quanto conficiamur moerore, 10 August, 1863]

In other words: the authority of the Petrine successor (i.e. the Pope) is the Authority of Christ Himself in matters of faith, morals, and dogma.

Again, I apologize for any offense given.

B-chan

[Grig]

"I've seen this repeated a number of times, but nobody has ever provided documentation.
"

You sound like a Holocaust denier. No respectable historian disputes the great amound of death and suffering and injustice inflicted on the early Mormons.

[Grig]

I'll bring the sacrifice :)

[Some hope remaining.]

Just remember -- to obey is better than to sacrifice.

[B-Chan]

The Apostle's Creed you quote does not explicitly define that God is a Trinity...

It certainly does. "We believe in One God, the Father, the Almighty...and in His only Son, our Lord... and in the Holy Spirit[...]. That's all one statement.

...nor does it specically state that Jesus is God.

"and in His only Son, our Lord".

[See also]

B-chan

[Dead Dog]

I have no idea what your point is. Do you?

[donozark]

RE: Your post 80. Well said!

[Grig]

"With all respect, the LDS Church can't have it both ways: you either consider yourself Christian or you do not."

Just how did we or I try to have it both way?

"Can a long-time Catholic enter the inner sanctum of the SLC Temple?"

Can a long-time Catholic enter the inner sanctum of Vatican City? Could any old Isrealite wander into the Holy of holies? Having a place that is sacred and thus has restricted acces is very common, and does not separate someone from being christian.

"As an evangelical, I was baptized after accepting Christ as my Savior. Does that mean I wouldn't have to be re-baptized if I converted to Mormonism?"

We belive the person who baptized you had no authority from God to do so, so in our eyes you are NOT baptized so you would need to be baptized to join us.

"why do any Mormons prosyletize Christians? If we're all Christians anyway, why waste so much time on Baptists, Lutherans, etc.?"

Because if somebody was christian in heart and not just in name, they would WANT to know that God has called a prophet, they would want to know ALL that has been revealed by God, and they would want to obey His commandment and be baptized by someone with authority of God to do so. Do you think a true christian would NOT want that?

[Utah Girl]

I thought it was my turn to bring the over-ripe figs...

[Dead Dog]

From a Protestant, who is not particularly fond of the history of your religion. Excellent post, and witness!