Posted on 05/27/2002 9:55:07 PM PDT by restornu
The Serpent (Lucifer) deceives Eve—She and then Adam partake of the forbidden fruit—Her Seed (Christ) shall bruise the Serpent’s head—Role of woman, and of man—Adam and Eve cast out of the Garden of Eden—Adam presides—Eve becomes the mother of all living.
Gen.3
20 And Adam called his wife’s name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
Redemption cometh through the Holy Messiah—Freedom of choice (agency) is essential to existence and progression—Adam fell that men might be—Men are free to choose liberty and eternal life. [Between 588 and 570 B.C.]
2 Nephi2.
18 And because he had fallen from heaven, and had become miserable forever, he sought also the misery of all mankind. Wherefore, he said unto Eve, yea, even that old serpent, who is the devil, who is the father of all lies, wherefore he said: Partake of the forbidden fruit, and ye shall not die, but ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil.
19 And after Adam and Eve had partaken of the forbidden fruit they were driven out of the garden of Eden, to till the earth.
20 And they have brought forth children; yea, even the family of all the earth.
21 And the days of the children of men were prolonged, according to the will of God, that they might repent while in the flesh; wherefore, their state became a state of probation, and their time was lengthened, according to the commandments which the Lord God gave unto the children of men. For he gave commandment that all men must repent; for he showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents.
22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.
23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.
24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.
25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.
26 And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given.
27 Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.
28 And now, my sons, I would that ye should look to the great Mediator, and hearken unto his great commandments; and be faithful unto his words, and choose eternal life, according to the will of his Holy Spirit;
29 And not choose eternal death, according to the will of the flesh and the evil which is therein, which giveth the spirit of the devil power to captivate, to bring you down to hell, that he may reign over you in his own kingdom.
30 I have spoken these few words unto you all, my sons, in the last days of my probation; and I have chosen the good part, according to the words of the prophet. And I have none other object save it be the everlasting welfare of your souls. Amen.
Alma contends with Zeezrom—The mysteries of God can be given only to the faithful—Men are judged by their thoughts, beliefs, words, and works—The wicked shall suffer a spiritual death—This mortal life is a probationary state—The plan of redemption brings to pass the resurrection and, through faith, a remission of sins—The repentant have a claim on mercy through the Only Begotten Son. [About 82 B.C.]
Alma 12
21 What does the scripture mean, which saith that God placed cherubim and a flaming sword on the east of the garden of Eden, lest our first parents should enter and partake of the fruit of the tree of life, and live forever? And thus we see that there was no possible chance that they should live forever.
22 Now Alma said unto him: This is the thing which I was about to explain. Now we see that Adam did fall by the partaking of the forbidden fruit, according to the word of God; and thus we see, that by his fall, all mankind became a lost and fallen people.
23 And now behold, I say unto you that if it had been possible for Adam to have partaken of the fruit of the tree of life at that time, there would have been no death, and the word would have been void, making God a liar, for he said: If thou eat thou shalt surely die.
24 And we see that death comes upon mankind, yea, the death which has been spoken of by Amulek, which is the temporal death; nevertheless there was a space granted unto man in which he might repent; therefore this life became a probationary state; a time to prepare to meet God; a time to prepare for that endless state which has been spoken of by us, which is after the resurrection of the dead.
25 Now, if it had not been for the plan of redemption, which was laid from the foundation of the world, there could have been no resurrection of the dead; but there was a plan of redemption laid, which shall bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, of which has been spoken.
26 And now behold, if it were possible that our first parents could have gone forth and partaken of the tree of life they would have been forever miserable, having no preparatory state; and thus the plan of redemption would have been frustrated, and the word of God would have been void, taking none effect.
27 But behold, it was not so; but it was appointed unto men that they must die; and after death, they must come to judgment, even that same judgment of which we have spoken, which is the end.
28 And after God had appointed that these things should come unto man, behold, then he saw that it was expedient that man should know concerning the things whereof he had appointed unto them;
29 Therefore he sent angels to converse with them, who caused men to behold of his glory.
30 And they began from that time forth to call on his name; therefore God conversed with men, and made known unto them the plan of redemption, which had been prepared from the foundation of the world; and this he made known unto them according to their faith and repentance and their holy works.
31 Wherefore, he gave commandments unto men, they having first transgressed the first commandments as to things which were temporal, and becoming as Gods, knowing good from evil, placing themselves in a state to act, or being placed in a state to act according to their wills and pleasures, whether to do evil or to do good—
32 Therefore God gave unto them commandments, after having made known unto them the plan of redemption, that they should not do evil, the penalty thereof being a second death, which was an everlasting death as to things pertaining unto righteousness; for on such the plan of redemption could have no power, for the works of justice could not be destroyed, according to the supreme goodness of God.
33 But God did call on men, in the name of his Son, (this being the plan of redemption which was laid) saying: If ye will repent and harden not your hearts, then will I have mercy upon you, through mine Only Begotten Son;
34 Therefore, whosoever repenteth, and hardeneth not his heart, he shall have claim on mercy through mine Only Begotten Son, unto a remission of his sins; and these shall enter into my rest.
35 And whosoever will harden his heart and will do iniquity, behold, I swear in my wrath that he shall not enter into my rest.
36 And now, my brethren, behold I say unto you, that if ye will harden your hearts ye shall not enter into the rest of the Lord; therefore your iniquity provoketh him that he sendeth down his wrath upon you as in the first provocation, yea, according to his word in the last provocation as well as the first, to the everlasting destruction of your souls; therefore, according to his word, unto the last death, as well as the first.
37 And now, my brethren, seeing we know these things, and they are true, let us repent, and harden not our hearts, that we provoke not the Lord our God to pull down his wrath upon us in these his second commandments which he has given unto us; but let us enter into the rest of God, which is prepared according to his word.
Mortality is a probationary time to enable man to repent and serve God—The fall brought temporal and spiritual death upon all mankind—Redemption comes through repentance—God himself atoneth for the sins of the world—Mercy is for those who repent—All others are subject to God’s justice—Mercy cometh because of the atonement—Only the truly penitent are saved. [About 73 B.C.]
Alma 42
1 AND now, my son, I perceive there is somewhat more which doth worry your mind, which ye cannot understand—which is concerning the justice of God in the punishment of the sinner; for ye do try to suppose that it is injustice that the sinner should be consigned to a state of misery.
2 Now behold, my son, I will explain this thing unto thee. For behold, after the Lord God sent our first parents forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground, from whence they were taken—yea, he drew out the man, and he placed at the east end of the garden of Eden, cherubim, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the tree of life—
3 Now, we see that the man had become as God, knowing good and evil; and lest he should put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live forever, the Lord God placed cherubim and the flaming sword, that he should not partake of the fruit—
4 And thus we see, that there was a time granted unto man to repent, yea, a probationary time, a time to repent and serve God.
5 For behold, if Adam had put forth his hand immediately, and partaken of the tree of life, he would have lived forever, according to the word of God, having no space for repentance; yea, and also the word of God would have been void, and the great plan of salvation would have been frustrated.
6 But behold, it was appointed unto man to die—therefore, as they were cut off from the tree of life they should be cut off from the face of the earth—and man became lost forever, yea, they became fallen man.
7 And now, ye see by this that our first parents were cut off both temporally and spiritually from the presence of the Lord; and thus we see they became subjects to follow after their own will.
8 Now behold, it was not expedient that man should be reclaimed from this temporal death, for that would destroy the great plan of happiness.
9 Therefore, as the soul could never die, and the fall had brought upon all mankind a spiritual death as well as a temporal, that is, they were cut off from the presence of the Lord, it was expedient that mankind should be reclaimed from this spiritual death.
10 Therefore, as they had become carnal, sensual, and devilish, by nature, this probationary state became a state for them to prepare; it became a preparatory state.
11 And now remember, my son, if it were not for the plan of redemption, (laying it aside) as soon as they were dead their souls were miserable, being cut off from the presence of the Lord.
12 And now, there was no means to reclaim men from this fallen state, which man had brought upon himself because of his own disobedience;
13 Therefore, according to justice, the plan of redemption could not be brought about, only on conditions of repentance of men in this probationary state, yea, this preparatory state; for except it were for these conditions, mercy could not take effect except it should destroy the work of justice. Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would cease to be God.
14 And thus we see that all mankind were fallen, and they were in the grasp of justice; yea, the justice of God, which consigned them forever to be cut off from his presence.
15 And now, the plan of mercy could not be brought about except an atonement should be made; therefore God himself atoneth for the sins of the world, to bring about the plan of mercy, to appease the demands of justice, that God might be a perfect, just God, and a merciful God also.16 Now, repentance could not come unto men except there were a punishment, which also was eternal as the life of the soul should be, affixed opposite to the plan of happiness, which was as eternal also as the life of the soul.
17 Now, how could a man repent except he should sin? How could he sin if there was no law? How could there be a law save there was a punishment?
18 Now, there was a punishment affixed, and a just law given, which brought remorse of conscience unto man.
19 Now, if there was no law given—if a man murdered he should die—would he be afraid he would die if he should murder? 20 And also, if there was no law given against sin men would not be afraid to sin.
21 And if there was no law given, if men sinned what could justice do, or mercy either, for they would have no claim upon the creature?
22 But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God.
23 But God ceaseth not to be God, and mercy claimeth the penitent, and mercy cometh because of the atonement; and the atonement bringeth to pass the resurrection of the dead; and the resurrection of the dead bringeth back men into the presence of God; and thus they are restored into his presence, to be judged according to their works, according to the law and justice.
24 For behold, justice exerciseth all his demands, and also mercy claimeth all which is her own; and thus, none but the truly penitent are saved.
25 What, do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God.
26 And thus God bringeth about his great and eternal purposes, which were prepared from the foundation of the world. And thus cometh about the salvation and the redemption of men, and also their destruction and misery.
27 Therefore, O my son, whosoever will come may come and partake of the waters of life freely; and whosoever will not come the same is not compelled to come; but in the last day it shall be restored unto him according to his deeds.
28 If he has desired to do evil, and has not repented in his days, behold, evil shall be done unto him, according to the restoration of God.
29 And now, my son, I desire that ye should let these things trouble you no more, and only let your sins trouble you, with that trouble which shall bring you down unto repentance.
30 O my son, I desire that ye should deny the justice of God no more. Do not endeavor to excuse yourself in the least point because of your sins, by denying the justice of God; but do you let the justice of God, and his mercy, and his long-suffering have full sway in your heart; and let it bring you down to the dust in humility.
31 And now, O my son, ye are called of God to preach the word unto this people. And now, my son, go thy way, declare the word with truth and soberness, that thou mayest bring souls unto repentance, that the great plan of mercy may have claim upon them. And may God grant unto you even according to my words. Amen.
This is for an LDS understanding of Agency or freewill and why the LDS is closer in thougtht to those faith that adhere to freewill.
Many will disagree, Please no flaming.
Here you are! The first few verses quoted in the article above are from Genesis, and all the rest are from various parts of the Book of Mormon, which is found online here.
Prove it, the serpent was also a type of Christ in the old testament. How then can it be a symbol of Lucifer? The word Lucifer itself refers to the city of Babylon.
I pray we stay focus on the reason for the Fall of a man, how man can choose to be restored by repentances and the how the Redeemer follow the plan of God that gave man Agency, where as if the plan was frustrated Adam and Eve would never have been our parents, also if the Devil had his way we would never have free will.
I pray we stay focus on the reason for the Fall of a man, how man can choose to be restored by repentances and the how the Redeemer follow the plan of God that gave man Agency, where as if the plan was frustrated Adam and Eve would never have been our parents, also if the Devil had his way we would never have free will.
Symbols are context sensitive. If you look in Rev 12:9 you see "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan,...", so you can't go about saying that every instance of a serpent is a symbol for Christ. Likewise in Isa 14:12 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! " and Luke 10:18 "And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven"
You are of course free to disagree and hold your own opinion if you wish. It is not our custom to 'prove' anything by relying on man's wisdom, instead we explain our faith and encourage others to pray and find out from God if it is true or not. God's answers are proof enough for those who love Him.
Now certainly after Eve partook of the fruit it was impossible for Adam to keep both (since Eve would be kicked out), but I wonder if it would have been possible to keep both commandments if Eve had not partaken.
It seems odd to me that God would give commandments that conflict with eachother. I find it easier to belive the idea that the fall was the only way was a lie of Satan.
Perhaps if they had waited, they could have progressed to a point where they could have taken it with God's approval and they (and we) would have entered mortality with the maturity to avoid choosing evil, making it possible to live a sinless life as Christ did.
This is all of course just my own musings on the topic and is very speculative. If any of you other LDS freepers have any official sources that confirm or deny any of this I would love to see it, but I doubt there is anything known about what would have happened if Eve did not partake since the whole thing is moot anyway.
Here is a bit of Catholic doctrine on Free Will [from new advent catholic encyclopedia] by Aquinas who expanded on the views of Augustine:
Augustine clearly teaches the freedom of the will against the Manichæeans, but insists on the necessity of grace, as a foundation of merit. He also emphasizes very strongly the absolute rule of God over men's wills by His omnipotence and omniscience--through the infinite store, as it were, of motives which He has had at His disposal from all eternity, and by the foreknowledge of those to which the will of each human being would freely consent. St. Augustine's teaching formed the basis of much of the later theology of the Church on these questions, though other writers have sought to soften the more rigorous portions of his doctrine. This they did especially in opposition to heretical authors, who exaggerated these features in the works of the great African Doctor and attempted to deduce from his principles a form of rigid predeterminism little differing from fatalism.
The teaching of St. Augustine is developed by St. Thomas Aquinas both in theology and philosophy. Will is rational appetite. Man necessarily desires beatitude, but he can freely choose between different forms of it. Free will is simply this elective power. Infinite Good is not visible to the intellect in this life. There are always some drawbacks and deficiencies in every good presented to us. None of them exhausts our intellectual capacity of conceiving the good. Consequently, in deliberate volition, not one of them completely satiates or irresistibly entices the will. In this capability of the intellect for conceiving the universal lies the root of our freedom. But God possesses an infallible knowledge of man's future actions. How is this prevision possible, if man's future acts are not necessary? God does not exist in time. The future and the past are alike ever present to the eternal mind as a man gazing down from a lofty mountain takes in at one momentary glance all the objects which can be apprehended only through a lengthy series of successive experiences by travellers along the winding road beneath, in somewhat similar fashion the intuitive vision of God apprehends simultaneously what is future to us with all it contains. Further, God's omnipotent providence exercises a complete and perfect control over all events that happen, or will happen, in the universe. How is this secured without infringement of man's freedom? Here is the problem which two distinguished schools in the Church--both claiming to represent the teaching, or at any rate the logical development of the teaching of St. Thomas--attempt to solve in different ways. The heresies of Luther and Calvin brought the issue to a finer point than it had reached in the time of Aquinas, consequently he had not formally dealt with it in its ultimate shape, and each of the two schools can cite texts from the works of the Angelic Doctor in which he appears to incline towards their particular view.
Regardless of God's omnipotence, I am not a puppet whose strings are being pulled by a tyrannical entity who is comanding me to sin. The choice has always been mine to do as I wish. Prayer helps in times of temptation and grace is freely given to help sustain me. Predestined thought is an excuse to behave as you wish without the consceince being excited.
According to Brigham Young, eating food composed of the elements of this world is what enabled them to finally be able to have children:
"After men have got their exaltations and their crowns -- have become Gods, even the song of God --are made Kings of kings and Lords of lords, they have the power then of propagating their species in spirit; and that is the first of their operations with regard to organizing a world. Power is then given to them to organize the elements, and then commence the organization of tabernacles. How can they do it? Have they to go to that earth? Yes, an Adam will have to go there, and he cannot do without Eve; he must have Eve to commence the work of generation, and they will go into the garden, and continue to eat and drink of the fruits of the corporeal world, until this grosser matter is diffused sufficiently through their celestial bodies to enable them, according to the established laws, to produce mortal tabernacles for their spiritual children." -- Journal of Discourses, Remarks by President Brigham Young at a Special Conference held in the Tabernacle, Great Salt Lake City, August 28, 1852.
See this link for more information.
How then do you justify calling Satan by the name of Lucifer? There is no context to prove that but there is context to prove Lucifer was the personification of the king of Babylon. In the case of the serpent, as Moses lifted up the brazen serpent on a pole so would the Son of man be lifted up. What is the connection in your mind?
What needs to be added here is the need for opposition for us to be able to make choices. Satan's plan, from the beginning was to redeem us without choice. The devil, still thinking his plan superior to God's, seeks to destroy the agency of man, binding when possible, us all with sin.
The way I see it the "big lie" in Genesis that was mouthed by the serpent is that we would not "surely die". The devil is determined to claim a victory to some small degree. The devil's victory is to claim us as his, which is called death. Death in the physical and spiritual sense is defined as separation from God who created us.
That the devil can separate some of us out to his victory, by binding us without choice, is a bitter yet limited victory over agency. Limited because we were given the "second estate" which is life in a mortal body, something the devil and his angels do not have.
Even with the partaking the fruit being required to make have children possible, it is still not contridictory for God to command them to not partake it and to have children if there is a way that in the future they will be able to partake the fruit. They would keep both by progressing to the point where they are allowed to partake, and then start a family. The command to multiply is on us too, but children are physicaly unable to do that, and even when they are old enough, God wants them to wait untill they are married.
What needs to be added here is the need for opposition for us to be able to make choices. Satan's plan, from the beginning was to redeem us without choice. The devil, still thinking his plan superior to God's, seeks to destroy the agency of man, binding when possible, us all with sin.
Satan's plan has never been redemption of man--it is our destruction he seeks. I will completely agree that he[satan] is always thinking of ways to be superior to God, hence his number identification--God being identified by the trinity 333, and Satan in his grandiose superiority elevates himself above God by choosing 666.
The apostate angel still creeps about the earth to encompass our ruin and keep us from salvation. He is the enemy of mankind and a murderer from the beginning, who tries to blot out the name of Christ--to plunder, slay, and consign souls to eternal damnation. This serpent--this unclean spirit--pours into the hearts of depraved men of depraved minds and corrupt hearts the poison if his malice, lying, godlessness, blasphemy. No...he has never wanted our redemption, only our destruction. He is jealous that man was given a chance for salvation after the initial fall in the garden.
Because we do not belive God has stopped talking to man. We belive our founder Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God. Through him God revealed the following (D&C 76:25-28):
25 And this we saw also, and bear record, that an angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God, who rebelled against the Only Begotten Son whom the Father loved and who was in the bosom of the Father, was thrust down from the presence of God and the Son,
26 And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him—he was Lucifer, a son of the morning.
27 And we beheld, and lo, he is fallen! is fallen, even a son of the morning!
28 And while we were yet in the Spirit, the Lord commanded us that we should write the vision; for we beheld Satan, that old serpent, even the devil, who rebelled against God, and sought to take the kingdom of our God and his Christ—
In other words, Lucifer rebelled, was cast out, and became Satan. This is not an uncommon belief, pick up a dictionary and look up Lucifer, on dictionary.com you get:
Lu·ci·fer Pronunciation Key (ls-fr) n.
1.The archangel cast from heaven for leading the revolt of the angels; Satan.
2.The planet Venus in its appearance as the morning star.
3.lucifer A friction match.
There is no context to prove that but there is context to prove Lucifer was the personification of the king of Babylon.
Lucifer is only mentioned by name in the Bible in that one chapter of Issiah. You can look at it different ways and derive different meanings if you want. How do you know that Babylon is not being used as a symbol of Satan's earthly kindom, or that when he starts talking about Babylon it's a change of topic and was not ment to imply the connection you make?
In the case of the serpent, as Moses lifted up the brazen serpent on a pole so would the Son of man be lifted up. What is the connection in your mind?
In that context, the brazen serpent was symbolic of Christ, but you can't take that and then claim every instace of a serpant is a representation of Christ, and I pointed out in Rev. where Satan, not Christ, is reffered to as a serpent.
If Christ wanted Eve to take the fruit, then how can a just God punish them for doing what Christ wants them to? God punished the serpant for what was done in the garden, do you think God punished Christ?
Just so there is not confusion, my remarks, though not so clearly stated, affirm your statement above. Satan seeks to redeem us to him, which requires destruction of us and binding us to devotion only to him. Such binding to satan is the destruction of man and removes us from the rewards that Christ offers to all creation.
The number "6" is the fallen man, the man given the ability to sin, the man in need of a redeemer. The number "666" is fallen man giving devotion to his fallen nature and glorifying sin, thus by expression one given to the devil.
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