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To: Grig
I'm sorry but I cannot accept Joseph Smith anymore than I do Luther or any of the other "popes", I mean no offense. So without Joseph Smith's writings there is no scripture connecting the name Lucifer with Satan yet most continue to believe this. Interesting. Regarding the serpent relating to Christ, that which was killed was flesh and since man can kill the body but only God can kill the soul, the only thing that died was flesh, not Christ. That which Christ willingly sacrificed was Satan, the Devil, the Serpent and the carnal mind and that is how he overcame the devil by living in his flesh sinlessly as no man had ever and then becoming the perfect sacrifice for us, overcoming then nailing Satan to the cross as the serpent in the wilderness.
20 posted on 05/28/2002 10:35:21 AM PDT by vmatt
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To: vmatt
So without Joseph Smith's writings there is no scripture connecting the name Lucifer with Satan yet most continue to believe this.

Correct, there is no scripture in the Bible except that one verse in Isaiah that uses the word Lucifer. Yet there is extra-biblical commentary in ancient Judahism, pre-nicene Christian writers, and ancient and contemporary traditions of the occult that claim Lucifer to be the name and title for Satan before his fallen state upon the earth.

This belief that Lucifer is a pre-fall name satan is directly linked to another belief, namely the pre-existence of souls or our spirit creation before the physical world was created. If a belief system denies the creation of us spiritually before be were born, then the name Lucifer was also erased except as a name for the earthly king in Babylon. This denial of a pre-existence has occurred twice, once among the Jews around 400 to 300 BC, and in the Catholic Church officially in the eleventh century.

Judahism up until the third century BC did believe in a pre-mortal existence of our spirits. At the time of Christ this was accredited as superstition by the Sanhedrin, though still a widespread superstition by Jews and gentiles alike. In the early Christian Church, from extra-biblical sources we find that a spiritual pre-existence was taught again. We find only small hints that such a belief of a pre-existence was not denied by Christ in scripture, and only hints that the disciples of Christ in the New Testament also believed in a pre-existence of our spirits before being born.

24 posted on 05/28/2002 11:51:24 AM PDT by scottiewottie
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To: vmatt
I'm sorry but I cannot accept Joseph Smith anymore than I do Luther or any of the other "popes", I mean no offense.

None taken, you asked how I justified linking them and I had to reply honestly.

there is no scripture connecting the name Lucifer with Satan yet most continue to believe this. Interesting.

Regarding the serpent relating to Christ, that which was killed was flesh and since man can kill the body but only God can kill the soul, the only thing that died was flesh, not Christ. That which Christ willingly sacrificed was Satan, the Devil, the Serpent and the carnal mind and that is how he overcame the devil by living in his flesh sinlessly as no man had ever and then becoming the perfect sacrifice for us, overcoming then nailing Satan to the cross as the serpent in the wilderness.

I don't get what you mean here. Are you equating our physical body with Satan?

We see the brazen serpent as symbolic of Christ in that those who looked to it lived, as those who look to Christ will gain eternal life. It was Christ that was nailed to the cross, his soul left his mortal, physical body and that body remained in the tomb until Christ took it up again as a perfected, immortal body. We belive in a litteral, physical resurection.

32 posted on 05/28/2002 12:39:32 PM PDT by Grig
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