Posted on 01/03/2002 11:19:13 AM PST by ArGee
Pray that I never give you a reason to change your mind about me.
Shalom.
Ahhh, I see now. You believe that you have to read a single book differently than you would read any other book.
I understand now why you have a lower standard for what you call evidence than do I.
I am sorry that you are limiting yourself so completely. I did not say that biology is invalid. I said that it had to recognize that beings are not subject solely to physical laws.
G-d is not a repeatable experiment. But then, how many times do you have to destroy the first-born of Egypt for people to get the message?
I will pray for you, but I believe you and I have danced all of the dance and gotten nowhere. But if you think otherwise, post away.
Shalom.
I'm going to guess that you didn't get much out of the Illiad, either.
You don't seem to understand literary devices very well.
G-d is above you, but He is not up in the sky.
Shalom.
The only place I've ever seen a claim of that was in a book that is no different than The Iliad. Do you have some independently verifiable evidence to back up this claim about your alleged god killing the firstborn of a nation? OOOPS! I forgot, you first must present that independently verifiable evidence that this alleged god exists before you can convince me of the second condition.
Now, don't get rude, but what does that mean?
Are you a Christian? Do you believe that God creates everything? Then what is "independently verifiable evidence"?
Independent of what?
Actually, I got a lot out of The Iliad.
You don't seem to understand literary devices very well.
Ahhhhhhh, so now you agree with me and The Bible is nothing more than literature, no different than The Iliad. I'm glad we came to some form of agreement here!
G-d is above you, but He is not up in the sky.
So what you are saying here is that from a literary viewpoint, YHWH is no different from Zeus or Odin and the Biblical "Heaven" is identical to the "Mount Olympus" of Greek mythology or the "Asgard" or Norse mythology as literary devices. We really are coming to agreement here! I had no idea I would convince you of my viewpoint and had no intention of that when I started posting on this thread!
My purpose in posting here was really to demonstrate the fallacious nature of your analogy where the faithless are concerned.
Now, don't get rude, but what does that mean?
Are you a Christian? Do you believe that God creates everything? Then what is "independently verifiable evidence"?
Answers:
1) No
2) No
3) As with the scientific method, any evidence presented to me to support the assertion that any god(s) exist must have results which are independently reproducable and falsifiable.
Independent of what?
The presenter of the evidence, of course.
Oh. I thought we were talking about Christianity. Christianity is the Club 54 for those who want to go to heaven.
I apologize for my mistake.
No one can logically prove that God does exist or that God does not exist.
I believe there is a Higher Being. I do not believe that any man has ever had verifiable access to the nature and properties of the Higher Being.
Religion exists to give man aid and comfort in dealing with that which is not knowable or not understandable. They assign specific attributes to the Higher Being to give aid and comfort in specific cases.
All too often, those same attributes cause even greater pain and suffering when applied to a different situation. Many religions try to solve these unforeseen consequences by creating more attributes. These additional attributes then cause other unforeseen consequences ad infinitum.
The end result is that many religions cause more pain and suffering than would have ever existed without those religions.
I'd be very interested in the scriptural proof. Seems contradictory that God would say "this is the only way" then make exceptions for people depending on extenuating circumstances. Then again, if God is just, He must be fair to all people, and cannot hold those who never heard His word accountable for something they didn't know.
This is a major sticking point for many Chinese, who revere their ancestors and want the best for them in the afterlife--who wouldn't? So far, I have not found a satisfactory answer from mainstream Christianity.
Let me recommend a wonderful book that I just finished. It's called "Safely Home" by Randy Alcorn. It deals entirely with the church in China, and there's even some stuff to speak directly to your question.
Sounds like a fascinating book. Thanks for the reference. I'll check my local bookstore.
Come to the Table.
Thank you for the invitation. I accept your kindness and willingness to share something so wonderful.
Will the "rich man" likewise issue an invitation to me? How will I recognize it and Him when the invitation comes?
Shalom (Peace unto you as well)
(Which is what I've been saying all along.)
To: ArGeeI disagree. Everytime you tell me my experience is invalid you put me down.
So what you are saying here is I have to accept your unverifiable evidence and become a Christian just like you. SHEESH!
You experience is invalid for me. It is unacceptable as evidence for me. I cannot reproduce it or falsify it, that's the standard for scientific evidence and what I require.
You establish a standard of proof that has never been acceptable for living things, then demand I meet that standard.
The standard is the scientific method. I can accept nothing less.
Unfortunately, when dealing with living things, you can't use the repeatable and verifiable experiment model. You have to use the statistical model because living things have will and so are subject to factors beyond simple physical laws. Large samples are required to prove anything about living things.
What you are saying here is Biology is invalid. I don't accept that. The scientific method of verification is all I will accept, nothing less.
942 posted on 1/5/02 2:33 PM Pacific by LuvItOrLeaveIt
All throughout this thread, you have been repeating the above. It is obvious that we (the Believers) cannot (or haven't yet) been able to convince you of how we got to where we are, or of the things that have convinced us to get to this place.
You have NOT, however, tried to get any of US to change sides by painting a fictional word picture of how YOU got to where you are. I can appreciate that. You didn't start a thread asking for input.
I guess my question is: CAN you do that? Do you have any evidence, that passes YOUR standard, to show us? Can you tell us of your experience?
Maybe the whole idea was Abraham's in the first place, and God intervened to prevent him from doing something stupid.
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