We Were Never Meant To Carry The Church

Mind of the Fathers (Substack) ^ | 05/13/2026 | Dn. Carlos Miranda

[TexasKamaAina]

Why do modern Christians instinctively assume that Christianity depends so heavily upon their own ability to preserve it?

That assumption says more than people realize.

Beneath much of modern religious culture lies a quiet distrust that the Church can truly carry and preserve the faith through history. The burden therefore falls upon the pastor, the scholar, the movement, the denomination, or eventually the individual believer to rescue Christianity from corruption.

[MMusson]

Most people prefer to Serve God in an advisory capacity

[Antoninus]

The Fathers never used the word “denomination”. There was the Church, the pagans, and the heretics.

[mewzilla]

Congregationalism needs to make a big comeback.

[Resolute Conservative]

As long as apostates run the churches and it is all about filling the pews for donations with rock and roll shows the church will shrink more.

[GingisK]

That was long before the “Creative Readers” came along.

[Flaming Conservative]

Arrogance.

[faucetman]

All of the corruption is inside the church. Organized religion is like organized crime.

The Pastor/priest is the godfather and you all are the bagmen.

[nagant]

Jesus doesn’t exist to bring people to the church. The church exists to bring people to Jesus. Thank you, Lord.

[imardmd1]

We who are born from above in the Spirit are the "church" that is, the currently existing "General assembly^{of angels} and Church of the First-Born^{of redeemed humans}."

The truly redeemed humans now living on earth and are constituents of a local assembly of the Company of The Committed already coexit both temporally and spiritually in Heaven. The "church" is within us, each of whose gifted function(s) integrated seamlessly with communally interacting complementally, beneficially gifts.functions knitted together across the boundaries, a condition granted by the Mighty Judge and His Son, shall never be rescinded.

But the idea of man-made divisions of congregants professing (perhaps possessed by redeemed, others not) into the classes of Nicolaitans ("clergy" overpowering the ordinary "lay" members); or supra-church councils and their "sees" and/or "denominations," will not survive return of The Lord Jesus Christ, Prince of Peace, when He dissolves the current authoritarianism and replaces it with His Own Kingdom of Righteousness and Peace.

Those even now living on earth who are spiritually mature enough to understand God's Plan for His children, do not accept these artificial God-hated unbiblical divisions. They find local independent autonomous assemblies of congregants whose recognized Head is Christ Alone, with no clergymen blocking the personal relationship of the truly redeemed servant of his/her Master and Friend, The Lord Jesus Christ.

The commentator Marvin Vincent has given a precise detailed summary in his Word Studies In The New Testament of what has just been said above:

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Hebrews 12:23

To the general assembly (πανηγύρει)

Const. with ἀγγέλων of angels, with comma after angels. Rend. “to a festal assembly of angels.” This and the next clause show what the myriads consist of, - a host of angels and redeemed men. Πανήγυρις, N.T.^o , is a gathering to celebrate a solemnity, as public games, etc.: a public, festal assembly. Frequently joined with ἑορτή feast. See Eze_47:11; Hos_2:11; Hos_9:5. The verb πανηγυρίζειν to celebrate or attend a public festival, to keep holiday, occurs occasionally in Class.: not in N.T.: lxx once, Isa_66:10. The festal assembly of angels maintains the contrast between the old and the new dispensation. The host of angels through whose ministration the law was given (see on Heb_2:2, and see on Gal_3:19) officiated at a scene of terror. Christian believers are now introduced to a festal host, surrounding the exalted Son of man, who has purged away sins, and is enthroned at God's right hand (Heb_1:3).

And church of the first-born which are written in heaven (καὶ ἐκκλησίᾳ πρωτοτόκων ἀπογεγραμμένων ἐν οὐρανοῖς)

This forms a distinct clause; “and to the church,” etc. For ἐκκλησία assembly or church, see on Mat_16:18; see on 1Th_1:1. The “myriads” embrace not only angels, but redeemed men, enrolled as citizens of the heavenly commonwealth, and entitled to the rights and privileges of first-born sons. Πρωτότοκος first-born is applied mostly to Christ in N.T. See Rom_8:29; Col_1:15, Col_1:18; Heb_1:6; Rev_1:5. Comp. Heb_11:28, and Luk_2:7. Properly applied to Christians by virtue of their union with Christ, “the first-born of all creation,” “the first-born from the dead,” as sharing his sonship and heirship. See Rom_8:14-17, Rom_8:29. The word also points to Christians as the true Israel of God. The analogy is suggested with the first-born of Israel, to whom peculiar sanctity attached, and whose consecration to himself God enjoined (Exo_13:1, Exo_13:11-16); and with the further application of the term first-born to Israel as a people, Exo_4:22. The way was thus prepared for its application to the Messiah. There seems, moreover, to be a clear reference to the case of Esau (Heb_12:16). Esau was the first-born of the twin sons of Isaac (Gen_25:25). He sold his birthright (πρωτοτοκία), and thus forfeited the privilege of the first-born. The assembly to which Christian believers are introduced is composed of those who have not thus parted with their birthright, but have retained the privileges of the first-born. The phrase “church of the first-born” includes all who have possessed and retained their heavenly birthright, living or dead, of both dispensations: the whole Israel of God, although it is quite likely that the Christian church may have been most prominent in the writer's thought.

Which are written in heaven (ἀπογεγραμμένων ἐν οὐρανοῖς)

Ἁπογράφειν, only here and Luk_2:1, Luk_2:3, Luk_2:5, means to write off or copy; to enter in a register the names, property, and income of men. Hence, ἀπογραφή an enrollment. See on Luk_2:1, Luk_2:2. Here, inscribed as members of the heavenly commonwealth; citizens of heaven; Php_4:3; Rev_3:5; Rev_13:8, etc. See for the image, Exo_32:32; Psa_69:28; Isa_4:3; Dan_12:1; Luk_10:20.

To God the judge of all (κριτῇ θεῷ πάντων)

Rend. “a judge who is God of all.” Comp. Dan_7:9 ff. God of all his first-born, of those whom he chastens, of all who are in filial relations with him under both covenants, and who, therefore, need not fear to draw near to him as judge.

Spirits of just men made perfect (πνεύμασι δικαίων)

The departed spirits of the righteous of both dispensations, who have completed their course after having undergone their earthly discipline. Notice again the idea of τελείωσις, not attained under the old covenant, but only through the work of Christ, the benefits of which the disembodied saints of the O.T. share with departed Christian believers. Comp. Heb_11:40.

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Be advised, my FRiends.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

+1

[Elsie]

Why do modern Christians instinctively assume that Christianity depends so heavily upon their own ability to preserve it?

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Judges 2:6-10

6 After Joshua had dismissed the Israelites, they went to take possession of the land, each to their own inheritance.
7 The people served the Lord throughout the lifetime of Joshua and of the elders who outlived him and who had seen all the great things the Lord had done for Israel.

8 Joshua son of Nun, the servant of the Lord, died at the age of a hundred and ten. 9 And they buried him in the land of his inheritance, at Timnath Heres[a] in the hill country of Ephraim, north of Mount Gaash.

10 After that whole generation had been gathered to their ancestors, another generation grew up who knew neither the Lord nor what he had done for Israel.

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And FREEDOM works the same way...

[Cronos]

Congregationalism hasn’t gone anywhere—it is already the dominant model in modern Western non-Apostolic Christianity, and it is precisely why Christian unity is in shambles.

When you make every single local church completely autonomous and independent you end up with a myriad of views ending up with the universal unitarians.

If a local church in one town votes to accept a heresy, and a church in the next town votes to reject it, who decides who is right? Truth becomes a matter of local majority vote.

That is completely foreign to the New Testament.

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Look at Acts 15 - when the first major doctrinal crisis hit the early Church.

What happened? The local churches did NOT practice ‘congregationalism.’ Antioch didn’t hold a local congregational vote to decide what they believed.

Instead, they sent the issue up to a central, hierarchical authority: the Apostles and elders in Jerusalem (Acts 15:2). The Council of Jerusalem issued a binding decree, and Acts 16:4 tells us that as Paul and Timothy traveled, ‘they delivered to them for observance the decisions that had been reached by the apostles and elders who were at Jerusalem.’

The biblical Church operates on apostolic authority, not local autonomy.

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The New Testament is packed with instructions that completely destroy congregationalism. Paul didn’t tell Titus to let congregations govern themselves; he gave Titus apostolic authority over multiple churches: ‘This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might... appoint elders in every town as I directed you’ (Titus 1:5).

The author of Hebrews explicitly commands believers: ‘Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls’ (Hebrews 13:17). In a congregational system, the leaders submit to the votes of the congregation. The biblical order is inverted.

Christ prayed that His followers would be ‘perfectly one’ so that the world would believe (John 17:23). Congregationalism produces the exact opposite. It creates radical individualism, where anyone who disagrees with their local church can simply drive down the street, start a new autonomous congregation, and declare themselves the final authority.

Congregationalism doesn’t need a comeback. We are already living through the theological fragmentation it causes when Christians reject the structure Christ actually built.

[Cronos]

imardmd1, your post claims that because the true Church is a spiritual, heavenly reality ("the general assembly of angels and Church of the First-Born"), it cannot have an earthly, visible, hierarchical structure.

tht is a classic FALSE DICHTONOMY -- the New Testament explicitly demonstrates that this heavenly reality is mirrored by a visible, structured governance on earth

you, imardmd1 are misusing that word "Nicolaitan" (from Revelation 2) to claim it means "clergy overpowering the laity." You put a fabricated etymology -- historically the Nicolaitans were a 1st-century sect condemned by the early Church for advocating moral compromise and sexual immorality/idolatrous feasts, not for having bishops.

Then you go on to say that spiritually mature people find "independent autonomous assemblies... with no clergymen blocking the personal relationship."--. yet you are in contrary to St. Paul's command to Titus to appoint elders [priests/clergy] in every town 9titus 1:5)

Why does the New Testament explicitly create the offices of Bishop (Episkopos), Priest (Presbyteros), and Deacon (Diakonos)?

[Cronos]

Then, imardmd1, you posted Marvin Vincent's commentary, but did you actually READ it? - Vincent's commentary is AGAINST radical independent congregationalism

you might ask "really' - so look at The 'myriads' embrace not only angels, but redeemed men, enrolled as citizens of the heavenly commonwealth... points to Christians as the true Israel of God."

This is a perfect description of the Catholic doctrine of the Communion of Saints. The Catholic Church teaches that the Church exists in three states: the Church Militant (on earth), the Church Suffering (in Purgatory), and the Church Triumphant (in Heaven).

The text says believers are part of a "heavenly commonwealth."

A commonwealth is not an unorganized, loose collection of independent, autonomous individuals who split up whenever they disagree.

A commonwealth is a structured body with laws, citizens, and governing authority.

[Cronos]

Then, let's go forward - look at Vincent's "The departed spirits of the righteous of both dispensations... after having undergone their earthly discipline. Notice again the idea of τελείωσις [perfection], not attained under the old covenant, but only through the work of Christ..."

Vincent explicitly highlights earthly discipline and progression toward perfection. This strongly supports the Catholic understanding of sanctification as an ongoing process, rather than the Protestant view of purely "imputed" righteousness where a person is declared perfectly righteous instantly without actual intrinsic transformation.

If the spirits of the just are "made perfect" (teteleiomenon—completed/matured), it means salvation involves actual, internal, spiritual perfection, completely contradicting YOUR, IMADRMD1'S earlier claim that we have "no works" and do nothing but receive a legal declaration.

So, Michael Vincent actually says congregationalism bad and says that it's not just 'declare and once s always s"

[Cronos]

I’ll end with Hebrews 13:17 ‘Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls’

If your church model allows you to vote your pastor out or leave the moment you disagree, you aren’t submitting to anyone. You are your own final authority