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Catholicism Unriddled. {How did Lutherans lose a good part of their catholic substance? the very practices were present in their foundational documents.}
First Things ^ | July 16th, 2015 | Russell E. Saltzman

Posted on 11/20/2024 2:28:31 AM PST by Cronos

I first read Jaroslav Pelikan’s The Riddle of Roman Catholicism: Its History, Its Beliefs, Its Future (1959) while doing my pastoral residency in Detroit, 1978–79. I just finished it for the second time. It is still a book with value. Pelikan says one thing in particular that struck me: Any Lutheran converting to Rome should give up any hope or expectation of having a Protestant impact on Catholicism.

As I transition from Lutheran to Rome, I rather hope the reverse. I want Catholicism to have an impact on me.

When I was growing up, what Catholics did, Lutherans didn’t. That seemed to be the extent of what Lutherans knew about Catholics and, equally, the extent of what we knew about being Lutherans. They did these things, and because we weren’t Catholic we didn’t. Simple.

The list was evident if never specific. We did not cross ourselves at the invocation or upon receiving communion. We did not pray to saints and we did not invoke Mary. We didn’t worry about obtaining “merit” through good works, because we got our merit by grace, free from Jesus, even when we didn’t ask. Our pastors did not wear funny suits, they did not dress in clericals, make hand signs over the communion elements, bow, or do any of those things that might be mistaken as Catholic and not Lutheran. Most of all, we didn’t have to stand in line at a confessional box.

It’s a wonder, then, I ever became interested in Roman Catholicism. That happened largely because, while a youth in catechism class, I actually read the Augsburg Confession. And there I found pastors referred to as priests, worship called a “mass,” private confession encouraged, and the Lutheran assertion—against Roman charges otherwise—that Holy Communion was retained, celebrated with reverence, and offered every Sunday. Except, for perhaps the previous three hundred years, Lutherans hadn’t done any of that.

I should point out I was an outlier in catechism class. I argued with the pastor, a very, very patient guy. The Augsburg Confession gave me ammunition. “If it says this,” I’d pester, “why don’t we do it?” I looked for gotchas. Strangely, though, it gave me a hunger for a Lutheran authenticity, one I sensed mostly by its absence.

Lutheran youth were once schooled in Martin Luther’s Small Catechism, though it might be better to call it a “simple” catechism. It was called “small” so as not to be confused with his Large Catechism. It is more devotional than doctrinal, and I find it still affecting and even literary in its approach to Christian basics. But one must dig beyond the Small Catechism to find what I did. And what I found at that young age was this: Lutherans are more theologically Catholic than they (or Catholics) could ever admit.

How did Lutherans lose a good part of their catholic substance? It wasn’t Luther. It was later Lutherans determined to avoid doing things Catholics did even if those very practices were present in their foundational documents.

There was a period for perhaps two hundred years after the Reformation during which Lutherans largely did keep to the confessions in parish practice and congregational life: weekly communion, private confession—the whole deal. And there were periods afterward of intense Lutheran renewal that sought to restore Catholic practices Lutherans abandoned. But, nowadays, there is little real confessional substance left in parish or denominational life, certainly not enough to have kept me Lutheran. The Protestant impulse among Lutherans, the “progressive” ones, it seems to me is to find the next new big thing to replace whatever was the last new big thing (communion of the unbaptized is coming, betcha). They cannot anymore locate the universal within the catholic.

When Richard Neuhaus left Lutheranism for Rome, I suggested—in print no less—it was largely a quest for authority, and I predicted few of his Lutheran colleagues would follow. I was wrong on both counts. Of his colleagues, the list has not been insignificant.

I thought he sought ecclesial authority, to become part of a church “rightly ordered.” But I was wrong there as well. What he sought was ecclesial density, a “density” characterized by an intensity of common teaching, worship vibrancy, the confidence of a tradition extending to the very beginnings of the Church, and the welcomed contention of many voices around and within all of it as each yet seeks better to understand the core, foundational truths that God is triune and Christ is fully God and fully human.

What Neuhaus found was what Pelikan found in his own way through Orthodoxy. Reading Pelikan’s 1959 book, one finds descriptions of an array of challenges then faced by Protestants and by Roman Catholics; how to move beyond parishes defined only by race or class, in only one instance. By and large, Catholics have fared well—the Protestant mainline, not so well.

I like very much what Robert Louis Wilken (also a former Lutheran) said of Pelikan: He found truth in “those teachings that were solemnly declared in the ancient councils and are confessed in the ecumenical creeds. His historical study had convinced him that the most faithful bearer of the apostolic faith was the great tradition of thought and practice as expounded by the orthodox Church Fathers.”

So here I am with Rome, looking for the same and finding it.


TOPICS: Catholic; Ecumenism; History; Mainline Protestant
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Russell E. Saltzman, a former Lutheran pastor transitioning to the Roman Catholic Church, is book review editor at Aleteia. His latest book is Speaking of the Dead. He can be reached at russell.e.saltzman@gmail.com,
1 posted on 11/20/2024 2:28:31 AM PST by Cronos
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To: Cronos

I grew up Lutheran, and was surprised when I attended my first Catholic Mass while in college that it was so similar.

Biggest difference, less focus on Mother Mary as a Lutheran.

Luther did not want to form a new religion. He wanted to reform the Catholic Church. The Anti-Reformation did much of that in response to Luther.


2 posted on 11/20/2024 2:52:02 AM PST by tired&retired (Blessings )
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To: Cronos
We did not cross ourselves at the invocation or upon receiving communion. We did not pray to saints and we did not invoke Mary. We didn’t worry about obtaining “merit” through good works, because we got our merit by grace, free from Jesus, even when we didn’t ask. Our pastors did not wear funny suits, they did not dress in clericals, make hand signs over the communion elements, bow, or do any of those things that might be mistaken as Catholic and not Lutheran. Most of all, we didn’t have to stand in line at a confessional box.

....I like very much what Robert Louis Wilken (also a former Lutheran) said of Pelikan: He found truth in “those teachings that were solemnly declared in the ancient councils and are confessed in the ecumenical creeds. His historical study

Nether the deformation of the NT church, nor the need for and work of reformation was that of one day or two, and both are yet incomplete, while here is another poor delude soul making the same damnable mistake of so many others. Which is that of holding non-inspired, post-apostolic writings as the model for the church, as if they were definitive of what the NT church was taught. Yet instead, despite piety, they also testify to the accretion of unscriptural beliefs.

Soon the man will be praying to Mary, etc. Yet it remains that distinctive Catholic teachings are not manifest in the only wholly inspired substantive authoritative record of what the NT church believed (which is Scripture, most particularly Acts through Revelation, which best shows how the NT church understood the gospels).

What Is the Catholic Understanding of the Biblical Plan of Salvation? THE LORD'S SUPPER

The MARY of CATHOLICISM

PRAYER TO DEPARTED SAINTS

CHURCH FATHERS ON ISSUES

LUTHER, ROME AND THE CANON;

HINDRANCE OF BIBLE READING

REFORMATION FAITH + WORKS

3 posted on 11/20/2024 3:01:01 AM PST by daniel1212 (Turn 2 the Lord Jesus who saves damned+destitute sinners on His acct, believe, b baptized+follow HIM)
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To: Cronos

I have followed the works of Dr. Scott Walker Hahn. He is an American Catholic theologian and Christian apologist. A former Protestant, Hahn was a Presbyterian minister who converted to Catholicism.

Hahn’s popular works include Rome Sweet Home and The Lamb’s Supper: The Mass as Heaven on Earth. His lectures have been featured in multiple audio distributions through Lighthouse Catholic Media.

Hahn is known for his research on Early Christianity during the Apostolic Age and various theoretical works concerning the early Church Fathers.

As a young man, Hahn was convinced that the Catholic Church was in error and boasted of having converted some Catholics into embracing a purer Christianity.

His conversion began when he and his wife became convinced that contraception was contrary to God’s law. He was bothered that the Catholic Church was the only tradition that upheld the ancient teaching of prohibiting contraception that Protestants abandoned in the early 20th century, such as at the 1930 Lambeth Conference. Hahn continued to study various issues relating to salvation, faith, and good works, as well as the Protestant doctrine of sola scriptura.


4 posted on 11/20/2024 3:02:09 AM PST by tired&retired (Blessings )
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To: daniel1212
►CATHOLIC INVENTIONS and DEFORMATION of the NT CHURCH
►What Is the Catholic Understanding of the Biblical Plan of Salvation?
►THE LORD'S SUPPER
►The MARY of CATHOLICISM
►PRAYER TO DEPARTED SAINTS
►LUTHER, ROME AND THE CANON
►HINDRANCE OF BIBLE READING
►REFORMATION FAITH + WORKS
►CATHOLIC and other modern RESEARCH on APOSTOLIC SUCCESSORS to PETER

5 posted on 11/20/2024 3:10:18 AM PST by daniel1212 (Turn 2 the Lord Jesus who saves damned+destitute sinners on His acct, believe, b baptized+follow HIM)
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To: tired&retired; .45 Long Colt; Apple Pan Dowdy; BDParrish; Big Red Badger; BlueDragon; boatbums; ...
Hahn continued to study various issues relating to salvation, faith, and good works, as well as the Protestant doctrine of sola scriptura.

Hahn is another heretic, as you also are (which even he would also say), and proffered apologetics of his have also been refuted here, by the grace of God.

6 posted on 11/20/2024 3:20:58 AM PST by daniel1212 (Turn 2 the Lord Jesus who saves damned+destitute sinners on His acct, believe, b baptized+follow HIM)
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To: daniel1212

🙏🙏🙏


7 posted on 11/20/2024 3:45:34 AM PST by tired&retired (Blessings )
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To: tired&retired
Trent Horn also writes good books


8 posted on 11/20/2024 3:46:39 AM PST by Cronos
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To: daniel1212

The Reformating led to solo scriptura and we see that clearly in the children of the Reformating namely: Mormons, Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah’s witnesses, Oneness Pentecostals, Christian Scientists etc.

Taking your idea of “read into the Bible by yourself” - you end up with folks like the Mormons.


9 posted on 11/20/2024 3:48:52 AM PST by Cronos
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To: Cronos
How did Lutherans lose a good part of their catholic substance?

I think it had something to do with the Book that Rome assembled.

It actually was read and studied, and a message thruout became quite apparent...

  
 

NIV Matthew 2:5
"In Bethlehem in Judea," they replied, "for this is what the prophet has written:

NIV Matthew 4:1-11
1. Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil.
2. After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry.
3. The tempter came to him and said, "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread."
4. Jesus answered, "It is written: `Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.' "
5. Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple.
6. "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written: "`He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.' "
7. Jesus answered him, "It is also written: `Do not put the Lord your God to the test.' "
8. Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor.
9. "All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me."
10. Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: `Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.' "
11. Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.

NIV Matthew 11:10
This is the one about whom it is written: "`I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way before you.'

NIV Matthew 21:13
"It is written," he said to them, "`My house will be called a house of prayer,' but you are making it a `den of robbers.' "

NIV Matthew 26:24
The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him.

NIV Matthew 26:31
Then Jesus told them, "This very night you will all fall away on account of me, for it is written: "`I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.'

NIV Mark 7:6-7
6. He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: "`These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
7. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'

NIV Mark 9:11-13
11. And they asked him, "Why do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?"
12. Jesus replied, "To be sure, Elijah does come first, and restores all things. Why then is it written that the Son of Man must suffer much and be rejected?
13. But I tell you, Elijah has come, and they have done to him everything they wished, just as it is written about him."

NIV Mark 11:17
And as he taught them, he said, "Is it not written: "`My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations' ? But you have made it `a den of robbers.' "

NIV Mark 14:27
"You will all fall away," Jesus told them, "for it is written: "`I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered.'

NIV Luke 4:17-19
17. The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:
18. "The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed,
19. to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."

NIV Luke 7:27
This is the one about whom it is written: "`I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way before you.'

NIV Luke 10:26
"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"

NIV Luke 18:31-33
31. Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, "We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled.
32. He will be handed over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him, spit on him, flog him and kill him.
33. On the third day he will rise again."

NIV Luke 20:17-18
17. Jesus looked directly at them and asked, "Then what is the meaning of that which is written: "`The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone ' ?
18. Everyone who falls on that stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed."

NIV Luke 21:22
For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written.

NIV Luke 22:37
It is written: `And he was numbered with the transgressors' ; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment."

NIV Luke 24:44-47
44. He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."
45. Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.
46. He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day,
47. and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

NIV John 2:17
His disciples remembered that it is written: "Zeal for your house will consume me."
 
NIV John 6:31
Our forefathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written: `He gave them bread from heaven to eat.' "

NIV John 6:45
It is written in the Prophets: `They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

NIV John 12:14-16
14. Jesus found a young donkey and sat upon it, as it is written,
15. "Do not be afraid, O Daughter of Zion; see, your king is coming, seated on a donkey's colt."
16. At first his disciples did not understand all this. Only after Jesus was glorified did they realize that these things had been written about him and that they had done these things to him.

NIV John 15:25
But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: `They hated me without reason.'

NIV John 20:30-31
30. Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book.
31. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

NIV Acts 1:20
"For," said Peter, "it is written in the book of Psalms, "`May his place be deserted; let there be no one to dwell in it,' and, "`May another take his place of leadership.'

NIV Acts 7:42
But God turned away and gave them over to the worship of the heavenly bodies. This agrees with what is written in the book of the prophets: "`Did you bring me sacrifices and offerings forty years in the desert, O house of Israel?

NIV Acts 13:29
When they had carried out all that was written about him, they took him down from the tree and laid him in a tomb.

NIV Acts 13:32-33
32. "We tell you the good news: What God promised our fathers
33. he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm: "`You are my Son; today I have become your Father. '

NIV Acts 15:15-18
15. The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:
16. "`After this I will return and rebuild David's fallen tent. Its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it,
17. that the remnant of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who bear my name, says the Lord, who does these things'
18. that have been known for ages.

NIV Acts 23:5
Paul replied, "Brothers, I did not realize that he was the high priest; for it is written: `Do not speak evil about the ruler of your people.' "

NIV Acts 24:14
However, I admit that I worship the God of our fathers as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that agrees with the Law and that is written in the Prophets,
and I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

NIV Romans 1:17
For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."

NIV Romans 2:24
As it is written: "God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you."

NIV Romans 3:4
Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: "So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge."

NIV Romans 3:10-12
10. As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;
11. there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.
12. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."

NIV Romans 4:17
As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations." He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed--the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.

NIV Romans 4:23-24
23. The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone,
24. but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness--for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.

NIV Romans 8:36
As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."

NIV Romans 9:13
Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

NIV Romans 9:33
As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

NIV Romans 10:15
And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

NIV Romans 11:7-10
7. What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened,
8. as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day."
9. And David says: "May their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10. May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever."

NIV Romans 11:26-27
26. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

NIV Romans 12:19
Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord.

NIV Romans 14:11
It is written: "`As surely as I live,' says the Lord, `every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.'"

NIV Romans 15:3-4
3. For even Christ did not please himself but, as it is written: "The insults of those who insult you have fallen on me."
4. For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

NIV Romans 15:7-12
7. Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God.
8. For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God's truth, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs
9. so that the Gentiles may glorify God for his mercy, as it is written: "Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles; I will sing hymns to your name."
10. Again, it says, "Rejoice, O Gentiles, with his people."
11. And again, "Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles, and sing praises to him, all you peoples."
12. And again, Isaiah says, "The Root of Jesse will spring up, one who will arise to rule over the nations; the Gentiles will hope in him."

NIV Romans 15:21
Rather, as it is written: "Those who were not told about him will see, and those who have not heard will understand."

NIV 1 Corinthians 1:19
For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."

NIV 1 Corinthians 1:31
Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."

NIV 1 Corinthians 2:9
However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him" --

NIV 1 Corinthians 3:19-20
19. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. As it is written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness" ;
20. and again, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile."

NIV 1 Corinthians 4:6
Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another.

NIV 1 Corinthians 9:9
For it is written in the Law of Moses: "Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain." Is it about oxen that God is concerned?

NIV 1 Corinthians 10:7
Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: "The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in pagan revelry."

NIV 1 Corinthians 10:11
These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.

NIV 1 Corinthians 14:21
In the Law it is written: "Through men of strange tongues and through the lips of foreigners I will speak to this people, but even then they will not listen to me," says the Lord.

NIV 1 Corinthians 15:45
So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being" ; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

NIV 1 Corinthians 15:54
When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

NIV 2 Corinthians 4:13-14
13. it is written: "I believed; therefore I have spoken." With that same spirit of faith we also believe and therefore speak,
14. because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you in his presence.

NIV 2 Corinthians 8:15
as it is written: "He who gathered much did not have too much, and he who gathered little did not have too little."

NIV Galatians 3:10
All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."

NIV Galatians 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."

NIV Galatians 4:22
For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman.

NIV Galatians 4:27
For it is written: "Be glad, O barren woman, who bears no children; break forth and cry aloud, you who have no labor pains; because more are the children of the desolate woman than of her who has a husband."

NIV Hebrews 10:7
Then I said, `Here I am-- it is written about me in the scroll-- I have come to do your will, O God.'"

NIV 1 Peter 1:15-16
But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."



And now; for the Believers in Christ who may have wondered how much FAITH to place upon the Apostles written words...
 
NIV Luke 1:1-4
1. Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us,
2. just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word.
3. Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus,
4. so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.
 
NIV 2 Corinthians 1:13-14
13. For we do not write you anything you cannot read or understand. And I hope that,
14. as you have understood us in part, you will come to understand fully that you can boast of us just as we will boast of you in the day of the Lord Jesus.

NIV 2 Peter 3:16
He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

NIV 1 John 2:12-14
12. I write to you, dear children, because your sins have been forgiven on account of his name.
13. I write to you, fathers, because you have known him who is from the beginning. I write to you young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I write to you, dear children, because you have known the Father.
14. I write to you, fathers, because you have known him who is from the beginning. I write to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God lives in you, and you have overcome the evil one.
 
 
 
 
The bottom line:
 
 
 
 
 
1 Corinthians 4:6 
       
Catholic Translations
Douay-Rheims Bible
But these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollo, for your sakes; that in us you may learn, that one be not puffed up against the other for another, above that which is written.

Catholic Public Domain Version
And so, brothers, I have presented these things in myself and in Apollo, for your sakes, so that you may learn, through us, that no one should be inflated against one person and for another, not beyond what has been written.

New American Bible
I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, so that you may learn from us not to go beyond what is written, so that none of you will be inflated with pride in favor of one person over against another.

New Revised Standard Version
I have applied all this to Apollos and myself for your benefit, brothers and sisters, so that you may learn through us the meaning of the saying, “Nothing beyond what is written,” so that none of you will be puffed up in favor of one against another.

10 posted on 11/20/2024 3:49:21 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: daniel1212

A never ending reformation is just a progenitor of liberalism.


11 posted on 11/20/2024 3:49:56 AM PST by vladimir998 ( Apparently I'm still living in your head rent free. At least now it isn't empty.)
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To: daniel1212
Here's a good book


12 posted on 11/20/2024 3:50:05 AM PST by Cronos
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To: daniel1212

Why the rainbow text — is that some indication of your particular sub-sub-group’s acceptance of the entire alphabet soup of gander?


13 posted on 11/20/2024 3:52:06 AM PST by Cronos
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To: Cronos

Taking Rome at it’s word, and you end up with the Rack, the Iron Maiden, boiling oil, witches chair, feet burned, burned at the stake...

https://churchandstate.org.uk/2024/11/the-catholic-inquisition-methods-of-torture-and-victims/


14 posted on 11/20/2024 3:57:16 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Cronos

Yup - lotsa them books out there.

So many of them - so little time.


15 posted on 11/20/2024 3:59:13 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Cronos

This is low, even for you.


16 posted on 11/20/2024 4:00:06 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: daniel1212

Your link takes excerprts like 2 Cor 12:13 to make non-sequitor non-logical points.

2 Corinthians is a very personal letter for Paul - he, in chapters 8 and 9 makes a lengthy appeal for his readers’ generosity in a collection to be taken up for the needy of other churches —> note a clear universal community i.e. catholic church.

In 2 Corinthians 10 in fact goes against the concept of multiple solo interpretations - he renews one of the themes of his first letter: The factionalism of the Corinthians, with various preachers and their followers competing to be recognized as in possession of the greatest authority and grace. But Paul insists “it is not the man who commends himself that is accepted, but the man whom the Lord commends” (10:18).

Onwards in chapter 10 he insists on the apostolic authority. And this coupled with his exhortations in other letters about the elders/bishops being successors to the apostles indicates the clear sense of episcopalism AND that there must a continuation with what the apostles taught, as passed down through the successors to the apostles, the bishops.

St. Paul abhors the factionalism stirred up by false apostles in Corinth, or by followers who claim more for their leaders than their leaders would wish. In chapter 5, Paul develops this theme, explaining that while we are in the body we are not exalted but long to be at home with Christ:

Here indeed we groan, and long to put on our heavenly dwelling, so that by putting it on we may not be found naked…. So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil according to what he has done in the body. [5:1-10]

From a doctrinal point of view the letter centers on these points:

1.The need to reject false human philosophy and pretentiousness, to embrace Christ’s cross, the source of all wisdom.

2. Avoiding greed, and the excellence of virginity - 2 Cor 11:2-6 “I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him”

3. a clear statement about the REAL presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist — a continuation of 1 Cor 11:26-29 “26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

27 So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. 29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. “


17 posted on 11/20/2024 4:04:54 AM PST by Cronos
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To: Elsie

You, Elsie - have you seen the log in your eye?


18 posted on 11/20/2024 4:05:25 AM PST by Cronos
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To: daniel1212

1 Corinthians is clear that the Church is catholic i.e. a universal community with the leaders being the Apostles and their designated successors. It is also clear that Peter is the primus inter pares - first among equals - not a monarch, but a servant-leader.

Your link then completely comes up with a false excerpt of providentissimus Deus, which isn’t in the actual text of the document — https://www.vaticanobservatory.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/LeoXIII-PD-Science.pdf

How much more is your “peacebyjesus.net” filled with such lies and half-lies?


19 posted on 11/20/2024 4:09:50 AM PST by Cronos
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To: Elsie

In short both those books show what the earliest Christian writers wrote:
Ireneus
Ignatius of Antioch
Clement of Rome
Justin Martyr

All from within 150 years of the resurrection of God Jesus.


20 posted on 11/20/2024 4:10:54 AM PST by Cronos
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