Posted on 05/03/2024 9:07:46 PM PDT by Philsworld
Once Saved Always Saved? Or, after the moment of grace, is a Christian then judged by his works and God's holy law? John MacArthur questions the salvation of Ravi Zacharias in the life he led AFTER he came to Christ.
https://youtu.be/L2tpwVrBEz0
So, in your mind, there is no assurance?
If the Holy Spirit is in one - and one cannot be a Christian if He is not - then HE gives assurance. Assurance that HE will not give up. But that doesn’t mean a person cannot abandon ship.
I like this summary from the Society of Evangelical Arminians:
“Concerning election and predestination, we might use the analogy of a great ship on its way to heaven. The ship (the church) is chosen by God to be his very own vessel. Christ is the Captain and Pilot of this ship. All who desire to be a part of this elect ship and its Captain can do so through a living faith in Christ, by which they come on board the ship. As long as they are on the ship, in company with the ship’s Captain, they are among the elect. If they choose to abandon the ship and Captain, they cease to be part of the elect. Election is always only in union with the Captain and his ship. Predestination tells us about the ship’s destination and what God has prepared for those remaining on it. God invites everyone to come aboard the elect ship through faith in Jesus Christ. [Life in the Spirit Study Bible, pp. 1854-1855]”
Also:
“(4) The election to salvation and holiness of the body of Christ is always certain. But the certainty of election for individuals remains conditional on their personal living faith in Jesus Christ and perseverance in union with him. Paul demonstrates this as follows. (a) God’s eternal purpose for the church is that we should “be holy and blameless in his sight” (Eph 1:4). This refers both to forgiveness of sins (1:7) and to the church’s purity as the bride of Christ. God’s elect people are being led by the Holy Spirit toward sanctification and holiness (see Ro 8:14; Gal. 5:16-25). The apostle repeatedly emphasizes this paramount purpose of God (see Eph 2:10; 3:14-19; 4:1-3, 13-24; 5:1-18). (b) Fulfillment of this purpose for the corporate church is certain: Christ will “present her to himself as a radiant church…holy and blameless” (Eph 5:27). (c) Fulfillment of this purpose for individuals in the church is conditional. Christ will present us “holy and blameless in his sight” (Eph 1:4) only if we continue in the faith. Paul states this clearly: Christ will “present you holy in his sight without blemish…if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel” (Col 1:22-23).”
“This making of mistakes”...these are the committing of sins...right?
Before we bring the big guns out in terms of pronouncing this Christian or that Christian worthy of having lost their Salvation, consider what Paul and the Holy Spirit did to try and bring an errant one back from spiritual apostacy...
Please note verse 5.(this isn’t necessarily directed at you Elsie). Apparently Christ and the Spirit can take some extreme measures before declaring an erring Christian irretrievably plucked out of the Olive tree. Certain Human Christians seem ready to damn the whole lot of Christians who have been imperfect in their walk with God without considering what the Holy Spirit might do himself to bring such poor misfits back from the edge of perdition.
1 Corinthians 5:It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife. 2 And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this? 3 For my part, even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. As one who is present with you in this way, I have already passed judgment in the name of our Lord Jesus on the one who has been doing this. 4 So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.
Consider also this passage...1 Corinthians 3:10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
The context refers to both those who lay foundations of faith in people’s lives and those who build upon them(pastors and teachers) and one’s personal self building of works of faith and righteousness upon the foundation of Christ that has been laid in each of us.(self accountability for the good work that was begun in us that another passage says will continue until completed in the day of resurrection)
My point is people may drift irretrievably away but not before Christ via the Spirit gets in their face. People won’t just be allowed to just take themselves back from God without a fight. Some might just end up being killed phycially rather than God letting that happen. Some Christians may find that all their works may be completely burned up but at least Christ won’t be burned up inside of them. That is the assurance of our faith.
Consider 1 John2:19-23 “19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
These people who appear to lose their Salvation are described in 1 John 2. They were never part of us to begin with. It’s really that simple. If you are truly saved you abide in him even when you screw up and have to come crawling back to the light and have your sins reproved by the light...you’ll endure the reproval because you know that only Christ has the means of eternal life. If you aren’t saved in the first place, you’ll never come crawling back.
I am assured, but not about one and done lickety-split. .
One of the best assurances I know of in the bible.
Hebrews 8:
10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
....he that doeth the will of God abideth forever (he that doesn't, is lost).
I see a lot of Ravi's life in that passage.
1 Peter 4:17For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 19Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.
Why would the righteous "scarcely be saved"?
Why would the righteous scarcely be saved?
Academic question:
Is John McArthur a Freemason, and if so, what does that do to his credibility?
It often helps to see the context:
“12 My dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful test you are suffering, as though something unusual were happening to you. 13 Rather be glad that you are sharing Christ’s sufferings, so that you may be full of joy when his glory is revealed. 14 Happy are you if you are insulted because you are Christ’s followers; this means that the glorious Spirit, the Spirit of God, is resting on you. 15 If you suffer, it must not be because you are a murderer or a thief or a criminal or a meddler in other people’s affairs. 16 However, if you suffer because you are a Christian, don’t be ashamed of it, but thank God that you bear Christ’s name.
17 The time has come for judgment to begin, and God’s own people are the first to be judged. If it starts with us, how will it end with those who do not believe the Good News from God? 18 As the scripture says,
“It is difficult for good people to be saved;
what, then, will become of godless sinners?”
19 So then, those who suffer because it is God’s will for them, should by their good actions trust themselves completely to their Creator, who always keeps his promise.” - GNT
It isn’t talking about salvation meaning “eternal life” (justification) but being saved from the evil around us (sanctification). Salvation can be one or the other, or both.
Or as JB Phillips paraphrased it:
“12-16 And now dear friends of mine. I beg you not to be unduly alarmed at the fiery ordeals which come to test your faith, as though this were some abnormal experience. You should be glad, because it means that you are called to share Christ’s sufferings. One day, when he shows himself in full splendour to men, you will be filled with the most tremendous joy. If you are reproached for being Christ’s followers, that is a great privilege, for you can be sure that God’s Spirit of glory is resting upon you. But take care that none of your number suffers as a murderer, or a thief, a rogue or a spy! If he suffers as a Christian he has nothing to be ashamed of and may glorify God in Christ’s name.
17-18 The time has evidently arrived for God’s judgment to begin, and it is beginning at his own House. And if it starts with us, what is it going to mean to those who refuse to obey the Gospel of God? ‘If the righteous one is scarcely saved, where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?’.
19 And if it is true that we are living in a time of judgment, then those who suffer according to God’s will can only commit their souls to their faithful creator, and go on doing all the good they can.”
For the time is come - That is, this is now to be expected. There is reason to think that this trial will now occur, and there is a propriety that it should be made. Probably the apostle referred to some indications then apparent that this was about to take place.
That judgment must begin - The word “judgment” here (κρίμα krima) seems to mean “the severe trial which would determine character.” It refers to such calamities as would settle the question whether there was any religion, or would test the value of that which was professed. It was to “begin” at the house of God, or be applied to the church first, in order that the nature and worth of religion might be seen. The reference is, doubtless, to some fearful calamity which would primarily fall on the “house of God;” that is, to some form of persecution which was to be let loose upon the church.
At the house of God - Benson, Bloomfield, and many others, suppose that this refers to the Jews, and to the calamities that were to come around the temple and the holy city about to be destroyed. But the more obvious reference is to Christians, spoken of as the house or family of God. There is probably in the language here an allusion to Ezekiel 9:6; “Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women; and begin at my sanctuary.” Compare Jeremiah 25:29. But the language used here by the apostle does not denote literally the temple, or the Jews, but those who were in his time regarded as the people of God - Christians - the church. So the phrase (בּית יהוה bēyt Yahweh) “house of Yahweh” is used to denote the family or people of God, Numbers 12:7; Hosea 8:1. Compare also 1 Timothy 3:15 and the note on that verse. The sense here is, therefore, that the series of calamities referred to were to commence with the church, or were to come first upon the people of God. Schoettgen here aptly quotes a passage from the writings of the Rabbis: “Punishments never come into the world unless the wicked are in it; but they do not begin unless they commence first with the righteous.”
And if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? - If God brings such trials upon us who have obeyed his gospel, what have we not reason to suppose he will bring upon those who are yet in their sins? And if we are selected first as the objects of this visitation, if there is that in us which requires such a method of dealing, what are we to suppose will occur in the end with those who make no pretensions to religion, but are yet living in open transgression? The sentiment is, that if God deals thus strictly with his people; if there is that in them which makes the visitations of his judgment proper on them, there is a certainty that they who are not his people, but who live in iniquity, will in the end be overwhelmed with the tokens of severer wrath. Their punishment hereafter will be certain; and who can tell what will be the measure of its severity? Every wicked man, when he sees the trials which God brings upon his own people, should tremble under the apprehension of the deeper calamity which will hereafter come upon himself. We may remark:
(1) That the judgments which God brings upon his own people make it certain that the wicked will be punished. If he does not spare his own people, why should he spare others?
(2) The punishment of the wicked is merely delayed. It begins at the house of God. Christians are tried, and are recalled from their wanderings, and are prepared by discipline for the heavenly world. The punishment of the wicked is often delayed to a future world, and in this life they have almost uninterrupted prosperity, but in the end it will be certain. See Psalms 73:1-19. The punishment will come in the end. It cannot be evaded. Sooner or later justice requires that the wicked should be visited with the expressions of divine displeasure on account of sin, and in the future world there will be ample time for the infliction of all the punishment which they deserve.
Verse 18
And if the righteous scarcely be saved - If they are saved with difficulty. The word used here (μόλις molis) occurs in the following places: Acts 14:18, “scarce restrained they the people;” Acts 27:7, “and scarce were come over against Cnidus;” 1 Peter 4:8, “and hardly passing it;” 1 Peter 4:16, “we had much work to come by the boat” - literally, we were able with difficulty to get the boat; Romans 5:7, “scarcely for a righteous man will one die;” and in the passage before us. The word implies that there is some difficulty, or obstruction, so that the thing came very near not to happen, or so that there was much risk about it. Compare Luke 13:31. The apostle in this passage seems to have had his eye on a verse in Proverbs, Proverbs 11:31, and he has merely expanded and illustrated it: “Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth: much more the wicked and the sinner.” By the question which he employs, he admits that the righteous are saved with difficulty, or that there are perils which jeopard their salvation, and which are of such a kind as to make it very near not to happen. They would indeed be saved, but it would be in such a manner as to show that the circumstances were such as to render it, to human appearances, doubtful and problematical. This peril may have arisen from many circumstances:
(a) The difficulty of forming a plan of salvation, involving a degree of wisdom wholly beyond that of man, and of such a character that beforehand it would have been problematical and doubtful whether it could be. There was but one way in which it could be done. But what human wisdom could have devised that, or thought of it? There was but one being who could save. But who would have supposed that the Son of God would have been willing to become a man, and to die on a cross to do it? If he had been unwilling to come and die, the righteous could not have been saved.
(b) The difficulty of bringing those who are saved to a willingness to accept of salvation. All were disposed alike to reject it; and there were many obstacles in the human heart, arising from pride, and selfishness, and unbelief, and the love of sin, which must be overcome before any would accept of the offer of mercy. There was but one agent who could overcome these things, and induce any of the race to embrace the gospel - the Holy Spirit. But who could have anticipated that the Spirit of God would have undertaken to renew and sanctify the polluted human heart? Yet, if he had failed, there could have been no salvation for any.
(c) The difficulty of keeping them from falling away amidst the temptations and allurements of the world. Often it seems to be wholly doubtful whether those who have been converted will be kept to eternal life. They have so little religion; they yield so readily to temptation; they conform so much to the world; they have so little strength to bear up under trials, that it seems as if there was no power to preserve them and bring them to heaven. They are saved when they seemed almost ready to yield everything.
(d) The difficulty of rescuing them from the power of the great enemy of souls. The adversary has vast power, and he means, if be can, to destroy those who are the children of God. Often they are in most imminent danger, and it seems to be a question of doubtful issue whether they will not be entirely overcome and perish. It is no small matter to rescue a soul from the dominion of Satan, and to bring it to heaven, so that it shall be eternally safe. Through the internal struggles and the outward conflicts of life, it seems often a matter of doubt whether with all their effort they will be saved; and when they are saved, they will feel that they have been rescued from thousands of dangers, and that there has been many a time when they have stood on the very verge of ruin, and when, to human appearances, it was scarcely possible that they could be saved.”
https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/bnb/1-peter-4.html
What is it about Freemasonry that it has to be kept secret?
https://yandex.com/search/?text=john+mcarthur+freemason&lr=103272&search_source=yacom_desktop_common
Perhaps you’d care to expand on your assurance?
HMMMmmm...
All this time I thought you were a Gentile.
Perhaps you could tell us.
https://biblehub.com/1_peter/4-18.htm
thanks
why won’t you answer the question?
I’m counted as the seed of Abraham. And you?
But what of this Man that Paul put under judgment that his body be destroyed by Satan so that his Spirit would be saved in the Day of the Lord. I supposed we could also consider him one of the righteous who were scarcely saved?
My responses were not of Ravi per se but about the comments regarding how people can lose their salvation, period. It is harder than what many seem to be surmising judging by this thread.
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