Posted on 10/04/2022 11:05:30 AM PDT by OneVike
Calvinists like to use Paul's reference in Romans 9:13, which refers to the story of Jacob and Esau, to support their Calvinist doctrine of predestination. Yet when we read Genesis 25:27-34, we know that Esau willingly, on his own, forfeited his birthright by selling it to Jacob. Thus it should be obvious that it was not by God’s election, but rather by Esau’s own free will choice. It's a misinterpretation of the Scriptures to claim this text teaches predestination?
To properly understand the text in question, one must understand the main reason Paul wrote his letter to the Jewish and gentile believers in Rome. His purpose was to reconcile their differing opinions, particularly about the obligation of the Jewish law, the advantage of the Jew, and the way of justification. At the time the two groups inside the new Christian church were trying to defend their own special opinions. Thus Paul’s desire was to explain to his converted countrymen the great doctrines of Christianity, and the relation of the Law of Moses to the Christian.
Mind you, Paul needed to help the Jewish Christian’s understand that GOD choosing the Israelites was NOT a guarantee that each individual Jew would gain salvation. God was simply choosing Jacob’s descendants to be the vehicle (if you will) by which HE would bring salvation to the World. A people, by the way, who would reject HIS gift like Esau did his gift (his birthright) of being the first born.
This goes directly to the reason Paul used the quote from Malachi,
"I have loved you," says the LORD. "Yet you say, 'In what way have You loved us?' Was not Esau Jacob's brother?" Says the LORD. "Yet Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated, And laid waste his mountains and his heritage For the jackals of the wilderness."
(Malachi 1:2-3)
Before I go on, I need to address the word, “hate” used by Malachi. The word, “hate.” when used by God is known as anthropopathism, i.e., the attribution of human emotions to deity. Certainly the type of “hate” that humans have cannot be attributed to Jehovah. He cannot hate His creation like humans do. He can, and does hate evil, and the results of evil, but that is not of HIS creation. Thus it is with God and His love for one and His hate for another. God still loved Esau, just not as much as He loved Jacob. For God is love. Often times, “hate,” was idiomatically employed to simply suggest that one is loved less than another. An example would be how Jacob felt about his wives, Rachel and Leah,
“Then Jacob also went in to Rachel, and he also loved Rachel more than Leah. And he served with Laban still another seven years.”
(Genesis 29:30)
Now the Jews, expected and looked forward to the coming Messiah to be their Savior, not the Worlds. Yet like Esau, they gave away their right by rejecting their Messiah. Paul goes on in chapter 9 to explain that GOD has the sovereign right to use any individual or group that he so chooses for HIS purpose.
Mind you, nowhere do we read of GOD offering unconditional salvation to anyone. He makes promises, and those covenant promises come with stipulations of obedience. However, even though the Jews did kill HIS son like the vinedressers murdered the landowners son. (Matthew 21:33-40) GOD is still good to HIS promise that all who accept HIS SON will gain eternal salvation.
One must also continue reading Chapters 10 and 11, where we see Paul refocus and reshape his explanation to make it clear that He is referring to corporate election, NOT individual election.
While GOD chooses groups for certain purposes, HE deals differently with the individuals in those groups. Two cases in point would be Nineveh being evangelized by the reluctant prophet Jonah, and the Syrian general Naaman.
The citizens of Nineveh, accepted Jonah's to offer to repent and be saved. In this revival, the people had a choice, to accept GOD's grace and forgiveness or continue living as they were, and be condemned to hell. They chose to repent. A freewill choice! Yet GOD still destined the city of Nineveh for destruction, because HE knew their descendants were like the Israelites, and would walk away from the GOD their parents accepted forgiveness from.
Then we have the Syrian general Naaman, who was healed of leprosy. He came away as a true believer in the ONE true GOD. Naaman had a choice, and it took his servant to talk
(Excerpt) Read more at trfmf.com …
Romans 9 clearly teaches Gods Sovereignty in salvation. A child can understand that.
I love these predestination debates. Calvinists believe the since God is omnipotent, he already sees the past and future and knows who is saved and who is not. It is inscribed in the book of life who is saved in the end times. This does not mean that personal choices don’t have an effect on whether or not that individual is saved - those choices have an absolute effect. The difference is that God already knows each person’s heart and cannot change their heart unless they come before God, through Jesus, and give him permission to. That freedom God gives us is our greatest blessing and if we choose wisely, we glorify him and are saved.
So why bother reading the commentary since you are convinced you are right
Why comment if you are not willing to prove I am wrong, by looking at the evidence I put forth?
Exactly
He is not a cosmic rapist who forced His love on us
The concept of Hell as eternal fiery torment of the wicked didn’t come from the Bible, but from Roman Catholicism. For a serious study of this topic, please go to https://www.samuelgdawson.com/uploads/1/1/5/5/115526689/jesus_teaching_on_hell.pdf.
Well I can think of at least one person that hell was created for..... Senator Edward M. Kennedy. Hopefully he is rotting there in absolute pain.
But some will choose to go there, rather than bow the knee to God.
Rev 16:9
You better tell that to Jesus,
And whoever shall offend one of these little ones who believe in Me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged around his neck and he were cast into the sea. And if your hand offends you, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed than to have two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mark 9:42-44
Amen
Mead, but true
Well there are always Bill Clinton and Prez Bidet.
I don’t think that belief is just dedicated to Calvinists.
A simple reading of the Psalms shows God knows all, beginning from end and knows everything about everything - start to finish.
People choose their destiny.
People send themselves to hell.
That is NOT the God presented in Scripture even if it is the god presented by Calvinists.
God does not capriciously choose to save some and not others. ALL men are made in His image and He is not willing that any of them should perish, which is why He provided a way of salvation that any person on the planet, regardless of mental or physical ability, station in live, or nationality, can avail themselves of.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient towards you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
Acts 17:26-27 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.
Sovereignty does not mean determinism.
Oh I knew we’d have somebody join this thread who would project their wishes about what the Bible says regarding hell.
Mark 9 talks about unquenchable fire for the damned multiple times.
I can post 10 other verses about fiery torment, but you seem to want to substitute your own narrative for what hell is.
Good luck with that! ;)
Then Jesus was wrong about eternal flames and torment, like the rich man endured while Lazarus was in Paradise?
More people are rushing to join him by the day.
Biden, pelosi, fauci, schawb, his evil transhumanist lackey, etc......
2Peter is one of the verses I use to prove that point
Good comment
My thought exactly
Makes me wonder if they are a Jehovah Witness
Don’t forget the parable of the wheat and tares (Matt. 13: 24-30). Both the wheat seeds and the tare seeds were crated as good or bad - one sowed by Jesus the other by Satan - but we could not tell them apart until they had matured (ready for harvest).
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