Posted on 09/24/2022 9:27:48 PM PDT by OneVike
The debate about who created evil is an important one, since atheists and skeptics use the existence of evil in their arguments against theism. To begin with, Christians are told we must believe what the Bible tells us. Even a popular children's song has in its lyrics these words,
“Jesus Loves Me this I know, for the Bible tells me so"
If it is incumbent upon Christians to believe what the Bible tells us, then we can start with the first verse of the Bible that says,
“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.”
(Genesis 1:1)
So, if God created everything, and if evil is in the world, doesn't it follow that God created evil? After all, in his Gospel, the most beloved Disciple tells us,
“All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.”Thus God made everything through Christ. However, are there any Scriptures that specifically say God is the author of evil? Well, the closest we can get is,
(John 1:3)
“I make peace and create calamity”Then we read what the Prophet Amos wrote,
(Isaiah 45:7)
“If there is calamity in a city, will not the LORD have done it?"Ok, so can we then point to any passages that might elude to God condoning evil? Probably the best examples would be the time Joseph confronted his brothers who sold him into slavery,
(Amos 3:6)
“you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good"Then in Exodus we read that God sent Moses to Pharaoh with this message, Now, to make an honest Scriptural argument for my stance on this issue, I had to first share with you the verses used by those who argue that Scriptures prove God is the author of evil. Those who come from the persuasion that God has foreordained the entire course of events as Calvinists do, then reason and logic would suggest that God must be the author of evil. However, Calvinists who teach that God is the author of evil would be wise to pay attention to the following quote from (John Calvin) himself:
(Genesis 50:20)
“It is helpful, I think, to understand that sin is not itself a thing created. Sin is neither substance, being, spirit, nor matter. So it is technically not proper to think of sin as something that was created. Sin is simply a want of moral perfection in a fallen creature. Fallen creatures themselves bear full responsibility for their sin. And all evil in the universe emanates from the sins of fallen creatures.” Calvin goes on to state unequivocally that, “God's role with regard to evil is never as its author. He simply permits evil agents to work, then overrules evil for His own wise and holy ends. Ultimately He is able to make all things--including all the fruits of all the evil of all time--work together for a greater good.”
[Institutes, 3:23:8]
Mind you, the biggest defenders among Christians who believe God created evil are those who adhere to the teachings of John Calvin. Well it seems to me that there is a bit of a schism in the ranks of the Calvinist movement.
Two verses used to defend the belief that God created evil are (Isaiah 45:7) and (Amos 3:6). In both instances the word evil, not calamity, is used in 12 of the 21 Bible translations I have. It is important to note that all but one of the translations using the word evil were published before 1948. This is important, because in 1948 the (Dead Sea Scrolls) were discovered by a shepherd boy in the caves of Qumran in 1948. After exhaustive and painstaking investigation,it was learned that the Scrolls revealed that the proper translation for these verses would actually be disaster or calamity, not evil.
Now some may argue that a calamity is an evil, because it causes pain and misery and so they will still argue that God is the creator of evil. However, when speaking of evil in regards to the nature of sin, it should be observed that there are three kinds of
(Excerpt) Read more at trfmf.com …
“So you have to pick one of the following...
1. I have free will, therefore God is NOT omniscient, or
2. God is omniscent, therefore I have no free will.”
Like most humans, you tend to think of God in terms of human limitations. God has no limitations. Ha can do or not do anything He wishes; therefore, your 2 choices place a limit on what God can do, and are therefore moot.
Indeed, but Knowledge of Good and Evil related to moral cognizance, not creating evil. To have some thing as Good, as in obedience to God, means the opposite would be evil, but neither being able to engage in that, or know that, does not create evil, though it enables a being to do so and be so, if such is able to choose.
The devil - the first real Liberal - was the first to choose to disobey, in selfish presumption, (Is. 14:13,14) thus being the first evil-doer, and later enticed Eve to do the same, under the same lying premise that God was unjust in not "sharing the wealth" with those unfit and unworthy of any.
St Thomas Summa:
Article 2. Whether the supreme good, God, is the cause of evil?
Objection 1. It would seem that the supreme good, God, is the cause of evil. For it is said (Isaiah 45:5-7): “I am the Lord, and there is no other God, forming the light, and creating darkness, making peace, and creating evil.” And Amos 3:6, “Shall there be evil in a city, which the Lord hath not done?”
Objection 2. Further, the effect of the secondary cause is reduced to the first cause. But good is the cause of evil, as was said above (Article 1). Therefore, since God is the cause of every good, as was shown above (I:2:3; I:6:4), it follows that also every evil is from God.
Objection 3. Further, as is said by the Philosopher (Phys. ii, text 30), the cause of both safety and danger of the ship is the same. But God is the cause of the safety of all things. Therefore He is the cause of all perdition and of all evil.
On the contrary, Augustine says (QQ. 83, qu. 21), that, “God is not the author of evil because He is not the cause of tending to not-being.”
I answer that, As appears from what was said (Article 1), the evil which consists in the defect of action is always caused by the defect of the agent. But in God there is no defect, but the highest perfection, as was shown above (I:4:1). Hence, the evil which consists in defect of action, or which is caused by defect of the agent, is not reduced to God as to its cause.
But the evil which consists in the corruption of some things is reduced to God as the cause. And this appears as regards both natural things and voluntary things. For it was said (Article 1) that some agent inasmuch as it produces by its power a form to which follows corruption and defect, causes by its power that corruption and defect. But it is manifest that the form which God chiefly intends in things created is the good of the order of the universe. Now, the order of the universe requires, as was said above (I:22:2 ad 2; I:48:2), that there should be some things that can, and do sometimes, fail. And thus God, by causing in things the good of the order of the universe, consequently and as it were by accident, causes the corruptions of things, according to 1 Samuel 2:6: “The Lord killeth and maketh alive.” But when we read that “God hath not made death” (Wisdom 1:13), the sense is that God does not will death for its own sake. Nevertheless the order of justice belongs to the order of the universe; and this requires that penalty should be dealt out to sinners. And so God is the author of the evil which is penalty, but not of the evil which is fault, by reason of what is said above.
Reply to Objection 1. These passages refer to the evil of penalty, and not to the evil of fault.
Reply to Objection 2. The effect of the deficient secondary cause is reduced to the first non-deficient cause as regards what it has of being and perfection, but not as regards what it has of defect; just as whatever there is of motion in the act of limping is caused by the motive power, whereas what there is of obliqueness in it does not come from the motive power, but from the curvature of the leg. And, likewise, whatever there is of being and action in a bad action, is reduced to God as the cause; whereas whatever defect is in it is not caused by God, but by the deficient secondary cause.
Reply to Objection 3. The sinking of a ship is attributed to the sailor as the cause, from the fact that he does not fulfil what the safety of the ship requires; but God does not fail in doing what is necessary for the safety of all. Hence there is no parity.
So God created Satan, who turned out to be a bastard.
So that leaves you two options to choose from.
1. God is an imperfect and incompetent creator, who screwed up royally, or
2. God created exactly what he wanted to when he created Satan, therefore he willfully created evil.
Which one do you pick?
“Evil is not a thing that is created, but an absence of good, just like darkness is an absence of light”
That’s just word gymnastics. Why does God cause there to be an absence of good, or light?
Doesn’t he have the power to keep the lights on... or is he like Newsom?
Who exampled the first “occupy movement” in asserting that he would sit in the throne of God, (Isaiah 14:13,14) inferring that God was not uniquely worthy of this position, but that Lucifer, a created being who owed all that he had to his wise and gracious creator, was.
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. (Isaiah 14:13-14)
And when that did not work out as presumed (he that exalts himself shall be abased), he next worked on seducing Eve with the victim-entitlement mentality, i.e. that Eve was the victim of injustice by God since He kept her back from what was rightfully hers:
Meaning that He lied about the consequences of disobedience for instead of dying then this was said to be the means of obtaining Divinity, which God was implicitly charged with unjustly keeping to Himself. And that therefore Eve was justified in disobeying God in order to obtain what was sppsdly justly hers. .
Which ploy was the means of the devil to obtain power, to boast before God of obtaining allegiance, while impoverishing Adam and Eve (Adam was most accountable since he was not deceived but simply yielded to his wife’s inducement). (Genesis 3)
Likewise, while actual injustices do sadly exist in the world since Adam and Eve, the devil yet works to obtain glory thru proxy servants that employ the same strategy. As in Communism, whereby real (and often exaggerated) or perceived injustices (such as regards material goods, power, freedom) by the bourgeoisie that possess them are focused upon in order to foster envy among the proletariat. And which benefits the Communist leader promises to obtain for them once in power.
However, while the principle of fairness and justice and working for the same is valid, the motive of the Communist leader is one of selfish lust for power, and who fosters class warfare (with its lies, miscontruances and exaggerations) to obtain it.
And having done so, then (depending on how strongly and comprehensive the ethos is applied) the ruling class that opposes classes ends up being the ones enjoying the power, wealth and freedom promised to them if the Communist saviors were given power, upon which the proletariat are made progressively dependent upon and with increasing degrees of allegiance.
And of course, the party of the Left also employs the victim-entitlement mentality in order to sell themselves as saviors of the oppressed and thus obtain power and control. And use a form of nationalism to do so, that of enemies not being non-Arians, but of a politically incorrect color (though incorrect ideology will relegate one to being one of the latter, while the accusers who are of politically incorrect color are treated as if trapped in the wrong flesh).
For the devil will continue to seek power, glory and allegiance, and pervert all that God has ordained, in a war which the devil cannot ultimately win. (Revelation 19,20) Thanks and glory be to God.
And as regards what the devil lusted for, beyond the gift itself of eternal life via effectual faith being counted for righteousness, God rewards the obedience of justifying faith with position (but not being God by nature, as Christ is):
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. (Revelation 3:21-22)
If not for evil we wouldn’t know good. It’s for the evolution of our consciousness.
Roman’s 9:14-24 (ESV)
14 ¶What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means!
15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”
18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
19 ¶You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”
20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”
21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—
24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
Are you saying that God is the author of evil?
That is a serious charge to level against Him.
Oh and whether God created or allows evil, I don’t see much diff.
Notice it was not called the tree of good and evil, but the tree of the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil. Adam and Eve knew of good and were good because all that God created was very good. By disobeying they gained the knowledge of evil and became evil. The object they ate was not evil but their action and thoughts were. They willfully disobeyed because of their pride which God abhors. Eve wanted to become like God, just like Satan did. Adam did not think God was great enough to take care of Eve’s sin and joined her because he desired the creation more than the Creator.
Truth has meaning and thus words that accurately represent truth have meaning.
“Are you saying that God is the author of evil?”
Well, did he or did he not create everything?
And, is he or is he not all-powerful and thus could he not end evil?
“That is a serious charge to level against Him.”
No, it’s a serious charge against those who refuse to use the God- given gift of logic to uncover the inconsistencies of their beliefs.
Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions. (Ecclesiastes 7:29)
Meanwhile, although sinful man sins under influence of his sinful nature, that does not mean he cannot choice at all to resist it, nor is man judged for what he had no choice in doing, nor for the sins of his parents, but only for what he is culpable for, and the degree thereof. Thus God appealed to the first murderer,
And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. (Genesis 4:6-7)
And the more blessed/graced we are, then the more accountable we are.
Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you. (Luke 10:13-14)
For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. (Luke 12:48)
And yet, this ability to sin grieve God who allows it, like as a parent is grieved when he allows his rebellious-by-nature kid is given freedom and acts it out
If you want to offer alternatives, first sSee Theodicy in dealing with alternative proposals as to how God should have operated.
It is your false dilemma that is a logical fallacy.
“And yet, this ability to sin grieve God who allows it, like as a parent is grieved when he allows his rebellious-by-nature kid is given freedom and acts it out”
So you’re telling me God has as much control over us as a parent has over a rebellious child.
Doesn’t sound very powerful, does it?
Also, a parent has little control over the inborn traits of his offsprings, whereas God supposedly has total control, so why does YOUR all powerful, all loving god create imperfect and even evil beings and let them run amock?
That’s something only a sadistic SOB would do. No?
Rather, God willfully created a perfect being, with a perfect free will which potentially could become evil, which therefore meant this perfect being, with a perfect free will could make choices, and choose to disobey Good, thus resulting in evil. The latter of which always "existed" as a possibility since if there is Good then by necessity evil must potentially be realized.
Which manifestation God knew of and allowed in His perfect plan, as the omniscient omnipotent author and giver of life, and who alone knows what every single effect will be of a life and even of our next thought, not only for this life and for eternity, who alone can and will make everything work out for what is Good and the good of those who choose Him over sin. (Rm. 8:32) And finite man, who is blind to the Big Picture, is in no position to judge the morality of the actions or inactions of an omnipotent and omniscient Being, and in doing so then man is essentially presuming omniscience.
And what is my false dilemma. What choices have I left out?
And please cut out the word salads and be concise and explicit.
You are partly right as God’s plan was to send his Son to die for our sins but he would not be much of a God if he forced Man to follow God so he had to give Man a Free choice and so he created Satan and allowed him to become evil and expelled him from Heaven. God gave Satan Earth as his relm, and God kept Heaven..God also created Hades as he wanted to end the Blood Sacrifice of the Jews and so sent his Son to die on the Cross and was buried, went to Hell and overcame Hell and rose from the grave as a new Man and ascended into Heaven . So yes God did create Evil as it was part of his plan to save Man.. God doesn’t send anyone to Hell, Man makes that choice for himself.
Wow. Wonder why this has never been discussed before.
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