Why Does Jesus Say That the Father Is Greater Than He If the Members of the Trinity Are Equal?

ADW.org ^ | 14th June 2022 | Msgr Pope

[Cronos]

A common question arising around the time of Trinity Sunday is rooted in this passage from John’s Gospel:

If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I (Jn 14:28).

This is somewhat puzzling because we are taught that each Divine Person of the Blessed Trinity fully possesses the nature of God and is equally to be adored and glorified. What, then, did Jesus mean when He said, “the Father is greater than I”?

The most common (and correct) answer is that in this passage Jesus was speaking in reference to His human nature, in which He is inferior to the Father; in His divine nature He is equal to the Father. Many of the Church Fathers spoke in this way. For example,

• • St Augustine said, Let us acknowledge then the twofold substance of Christ, the divine, which is equal to the Father, and the human, which is inferior. But Christ is both together, not two, but one Christ: else the Godhead is a quaternity, not a Trinity. Wherefore He says, If ye loved Me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go to the Father; for human nature should exult at being thus taken up by the Only Begotten Word, and made immortal in heaven; at earth being raised to heaven, and dust sitting incorruptible at the right hand of the Father. Who, that loves Christ, will not rejoice at this, seeing, as he doth, his own nature immortal in Christ, and hoping that He Himself will be so by Christ (Quoted in the Catena Aurea at John 14:28).
  • Didymus the Blind said, When he says “greater” he indicates that his divinity can be equaled to the Father, since he is of the same substance as him, but the Father is greater because the Son accepted a body…The Son’s nature is understood to be less than that of the Father inasmuch as the Son became man (Fragments on John at 14).
  • Hilary of Poitiers said, By the birth of the Son the Father is constituted greater … in that the Son, born of the Father, after assuming an earthly body, is taken back to the glory of the Father (On the Trinity, 9:56).
  • Theodoret of Cyr had Jesus speak, saying, Sometimes therefore I, [Jesus] say that I am equal to the Father, and at other times say that the Father is greater than I. I am not contradicting myself, but I am showing that I am God and a human being … If you want to know how the Father is greater than I, I was talking from the flesh, not from the person of the Divinity (Dialogue 1:56).

Thus, the first answer is clear: As God, Jesus is equal to the Father, but as Man, He is inferior to the Father.

In a qualified way, however, it is also possible to speak of a particular greatness of the Father even within the Trinity. While all three persons of the Trinity are co-eternal, co-equal, and equally divine, the Father is the Principium Deitatis (the Source in the Deity). So, although the members of the Trinity are all equal in dignity, there are processions in the Trinity. The Father is the Principium, the Son eternally proceeds from Him and is eternally begotten by Him (Jn 8:42); the Holy Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father and the Son as from one principal (Jn 15:26).

Thus, even from the perspective of His divinity it is possible for Jesus to say, “I delight that the Father is the eternal principal of my being. Even though I have no origin in time, I do eternally proceed from Him.”

The Athanasian Creed says the following regarding these processions:

The Father is made by none, neither created nor begotten.
The Son is of the Father alone, neither made nor created, but begotten.
The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son, not made, nor created, nor begotten, but he proceeds from them.

St. Thomas Aquinas speaks poetically of the Trinity in the familiar hymn “Tantum Ergo”:

Genitori, Genitoque … Procedenti ab utroque … compar sit laudautio.
(To the One Who Begets, and to the Begotten One, and to the One who proceeds from them both, be equal praise.)

So, although the Persons of the Trinity are equal, the processions within the Trinity do have an order. The Father is “greater” in the very qualified sense that He is the Principium Deitatis, the Principal of the Deity, but is co-eternal and equal in dignity to the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Devotionally, Jesus may also be speaking of the Father as greater in the sense that He always does what pleases His Father. Jesus loves His Father; He’s crazy about Him. He is always talking about Him and pointing to Him. By calling the Father “greater,” Jesus says (in effect), “I look to my Father for everything. I do what I see Him doing (Jn 5:19) and what I know pleases Him (Jn 5:30). As God, we share one will; as human, my human will and His will are one. What I will to do proceeds from Him. I do what I know accords with His will.”

[Cronos]

Mgsr Charles Pope Ping

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[Cronos]

This puts a lie to the Seventh Day Adventist and Jehovah’s witnesses denial of the Trinity.

Jesus is not the archangel Michael as the Adventists and Jehovah’s witnesses erroneously state.

[Tea Party Terrorist]

Flesh speaking as man in relation to God.

[Telepathic Intruder]

When you are a perfect reflection of God, then you and God are one being. You are equal. But when you focus on yourself instead, you are nothing.

John 5:30 “By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me”.

John 10:30 “I and the Father are one”.

[high info voter]

Equal in the power they have but different in thier goals and accomplishment???

[Philsworld]

——>Jesus is not the archangel Michael as the Adventists and Jehovah’s witnesses erroneously state.

Sorry Cronos, we’ve been through this already. Even your very own Catholic SAINT MELITO OF SARDIS says that Jesus is the ARCHANGEL AMOUNG THE ANGELS. And, there’s only one mentioned in the bible, and that’s Michael (not those other 5 or 6 that the Catholic Church just made up out of thin air).

Bishop Melito of Sardis:
The Lord Jesus Christ is acknowledged as the perfect Reason, the Word of God; who was begotten before the light; who was Creator with the Father; who was the Fashioner of man; who was all things in all; Patriarch among the patriarchs, Law in the law, Chief Priest among the priests, King among the kings, Prophet among the prophets, Archangel among the angels;

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/hcc2.v.xv.xix.html

[Tell It Right]

I always explain it like this. I am one person who is a Christian, a husband, a father, an American, and a worker.

Even when I'm working, I'm more of a Christian than a worker because I won't do anti-Christian things for my boss. Likewise I'm more of a husband and father than I am a worker. As important as my work is, it's not above the needs of my family. If my work didn't support my family it wouldn't be worth going to work.

When God was walking the Earth as Jesus, God's role as the Heavenly Father still trumped God's role as the sacrifice for our sins. As important as dying on the cross is, it's main purpose is to get us access to the Heavenly Father. As important as it was to get to know Jesus while he walked the Earth, that's not as important as living with God for eternity.

[sauropod]

.

[vespa300]

Except Seventh day Adventist believe in the Trinity. You are wrong. As for Michael the archangel, a deep study will show he is Jesus. “one who is like God” and only God is like God. He is not an Angel....he is the leader of the angels. He is not created, he has existed forever. Michael is simply Jesus incarnate in the OT.

I have yet to find a single doctrine that the Seventh day Adventist church holds that is incorrect. They are the purest of Protestants even holding to who Anti Christ is, the little horn in Daniel, the 2300 day prophecy, the judgement, the Sabbath, as in ALL ten commandments, salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Jesus alone revealed in scripture alone, the 2nd coming is no secret rapture, man does not have some kind of disembodied soul that departs at death, the dead sleep and come up for resurrection, etc. etc. etc.

Heck, they even have the best end time health message.....

Adventists are the utter opposites of Roman Catholics in virtually every category.....that tells me a lot. Prophecy and the good news instead of saving this planet and good advice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YdWqqYsI08

[evangmlw]

In taking humanity upon Himself and becoming a man, He willingly submitted Himself to the Father, seeking the Father’s will in all things. After His mission was completed, He ascended back to the Father and returned to the position of Glory He had with the Father prior to becoming a man.

[SkyDancer]

Good point. I’m thinking of Yeshua in His earthly body?

[SkyDancer]

But He also said: I and the Father are one.

[vladimir998]

Oh, please learn to read!

“Archangel among the angels” does not mean that Jesus was a literal angel rather than God, while all of these phrases:

“Creator with the Father”

“who was the Fashioner of man”

“who was all things in all”

mean He is equal to God the Father and therefore Divine.

Melito wrote plainly about Christ’s divinity: “He who fastened the universe has been fastened to a tree; the Sovereign has been insulted; the God has been murdered” (On the Passover)

Harris completely obliterated your erroneous assertions about Melito of Sardis 15 years ago: https://www.amazon.com/Jesus-God-Testament-Theos-Reference/dp/160608108X

Hebrews 1:7-8 (ESV) clearly shows that the NT authors make distinction between Jesus and angels. https://catholicproductions.com/blogs/blog/is-jesus-an-angel-hebrews-1-the-incarnation-and-jehovahs-witnesses

[faucetman]

They each have different jobs.

To say they are “equal” is ridiculous. They are all God/part of God, but clearly God “the father” is above the others.

1. Father

2. Son (Jesus)

and

3. Holy Ghost (Spirit)

[Verginius Rufus]

The angel Gabriel is mentioned in the New Testament. The angel Raphael appears in Tobias/Tobit, which is considered part of the Bible not only by the Catholic Church but by the Eastern churches.

[ShadowAce]

To me, the answer is kinda obvious.

God set up the family and marriage to mirror the Trinity.

Husband is the leader of the family, and the voice for all outside-the-family interactions. The wife is equal, the leader of the household, and matters internal.

Thus the Father is greater when it comes to interaction outside of the Trinity--even though Jesus is equal in power, holiness, and knowledge to the Father. ("If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father").

Notice how each member of the Trinity promotes the Trinity--God promotes Jesus as His Son, Jesus tells us to pray to the Father, and the Holy Spirit leads us all to Jesus and the Father. None are promoting themselves above the others.

[Cronos]

St Melito of Sardis actually wrote

“our Lord Jesus Christ, that we may prove to your love that this Being is perfect reason, the Word of God; He who was begotten before the light; He who is Creator together with the Father; He who is the Fashioner of man; He who is all in all; He who among the patriarchs is Patriarch; He who in the law is the Law; among the priests, Chief Priest; among kings, the Ruler; among prophets, the Prophet; among the angels, Archangel; in the voice of the preacher, the Word; among spirits, the Spirit; in the Father, the Son; in God, God; King for ever and ever. “

He clearly emphasises that Jesus is the superlative .

Or do you think he means Jesus is a patriarch with multiple children? No.

Your Adventist beliefs that Jesus is one of the archangels is rendered false again.

Btw the book of Daniel clearly shows that Michael is one of the princes of angels ie one of the archangels.

[Cronos]

Nope.

Daniel identifies Michael as one of the many princes of angels ie one of the many archangels.

And Michael means “Who is like God?” (a rhetorical question),

[Cronos]

Nope.

Daniel identifies Michael as one of the many princes of angels ie one of the many archangels.
The Book of Daniel mentions him multiple times: in Daniel 10:13 as “Michael, one of the chief princes” and in Daniel 12:1 where “Michael, the great prince” protects the people of Israel. In Daniel 10:21, “There is no one with me who contends against these princes except Michael, your prince.”

And Michael means “Who is like God?” (a rhetorical question),