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Locked on 04/24/2022 5:40:39 AM PDT by Religion Moderator, reason:
Childishness |
Posted on 03/06/2022 11:16:06 AM PST by CharlesOConnell
A man commits a serious crime, then he gets released. He has "paid his debt to society". But wait a minute, he's only ready for the half-way house. He's unlikely to get a prestigious job in his new prison suit coat, or any job at all; he has civil impediments, he can't vote or hold certain offices. His crime was serious enough that he won't be presumed to have been completely rehabilitated until he performs a notable service to society, or at least spends many years on the straight and narrow, so that his crime can be truly overlooked or forgotten.
In Catholic faith, your "debt to society" is paid by Jesus Christ on Calvary. It's called "eternal punishment", without Christ it keeps you from going to heaven. Supposing that you do take advantage of His sacrifice, you're truly sorry, have a firm purpose of amendment, if you relapse, you go again for forgiveness (to the Sacrament of Confession).
But your sin leaves a strong trace at another layer of impurity called "temporal punishment due to sin", like the civil impediments facing the half-way house prisoner. Because "nothing impure can enter heaven", there is a place or a state, a condition of purification to render you fit for heaven after Christ has finally saved you from hell. The Catholic Church calls it purgatory.
(Where is it in the bible? Where is the word Trinity in the bible? Where does it say that you only need a personal relationship with Jesus Christ? Many valid principles aren't stated explicitly in the bible, but it does say to "hold fast to the traditions you have learned, whether by word or by letter", because much of the Gospel wasn't written down, as Jesus only wrote in the sand, the majority of the Gospel was taught from word to ear to people who couldn't afford expensive books, the exceptions were what tended to get written down. But the implication that there is a purgatory, is contained in the bible--see the comments.)
The ex-con can receive a pardon or commutation of his probation from a Governor, if he performs some heroic deed, saving numerous lives, or, like Chuck Colson, performs a long-lasting, valuable community service helping numerous people who can't help themselves.
In the Catholic Church there are 2 ways for the residual, temporal effects due to sin to be expiated: suffering in this life, or after life, undergoing purifying suffering along with other people who will finally be saved, but have to suffer for long without the vision of God--that is what causes them their pain.
Their suffering isn't meritorious enough to grant their release, the saints in heaven and those on earth suffering and practicing virtue can pray for the suffering souls in purgatory. In no way is their release by slow transfer of suffering or practice of virtue, "buying heaven". It's a long, excruciating process.
How the misunderstanding arose that Catholics think they can buy their way into heaven, is involved with history more than 500 years old. For a millennium of Christendom between roughly 410 and 1410, there was a Medieval civilization with harmony between faith and government.
Many small farmers would cluster around the manor house of a military lord who would protect them, in exchange for a certain fixed obligation of labor and agricultural produce. In most cases, those "serfs" had much more leisure than factory workers of the industrial revolution; there were a large number of holy days without work, and except for planting and harvesting, there were long stretches of idle time.
Another large sector of the economy surrounded monasteries, where the monks developed most of the farming practices that stabilized the serfs and their manorial lords. The monks who worked those monastic lands were sworn to poverty, so that monasteries built up large accumulations of economic value over decades and centuries of labor.
At the beginning, when lands were being cleared and put into production there weren't prominent town fairs ruled by merchants and bankers. Money wasn't used for sustenance, not even much barter occurred, life was mostly agrarian.
Charity was woven into the economy of monasteries. It was estimated that you only need travel 12 miles in medieval England between monasteries, where you could get a meal and minimal lodging for free, based on need. And the charity was also spiritual, including the ancient Catholic principle of prayer for the dead, which is biblical. (See "prayer for the dead" in the original King James Bible in the comment.)
There were foundations and benefices for praying for the dead, that allowed a person of means to support monasteries' charitable works, and in proportional response the monks would pray for the souls of the donors.
It happened at the close of the middle ages, that militarily strong nobles cast their eyes on the labor value accumulated by the poverty-sworn monks of the monasteries, which those nobles perceived as monetary wealth, especially where gold and jewels had been donated by the devout to adorn churches.
(Protestant writer William Cobbett wrote in his 1824 "A History of the Protestant Reformation in England and Ireland", an anecdote, that an incredibly valuable, hand illustrated bible was stripped of it's bejeweled, gold cover, the much more valuable hand-illumined manuscript, thrown in the mud and trampled by horses hooves by raiders suppressing the monasteries in Henry VIII's England.)
A new religion growing up around this seizure of monastic lands and valuables, that sought to discredit the Catholic Church, spread the black legend that the "sale of indulgences" was abusive. But this was very exceptional. Today the stipend of a Mass said for the dead is $10.
Thank you for posting those verses. Yes, the word of God is crystal clear. Unrepentant sinners will not be in heaven. We are repeatedly warned of this by God through His agents. Yet, the OSAS group says that once saved by grace, there is absolutely nothing one can do to be unsaved…all future sin for the rest of your life is automatically forgiven and you, the sinner, don’t have to ask forgiveness, or even live a holy life (God says be holy, for I am holy). You are sealed forever and will be in heaven regardless.
They say your flesh can sin, but your spirit can’t, so you are good to go for whatever sin in you flesh you may commit (rape and adultery seem to be popular). BoatBums and her friends made all of that very clear (she went to bible college).
So, I asked them what the penalty was for unrepentant sin. They said nothing that would keep one out of heaven. One of them said maybe less jewels in your crown, etc… (how ridiculous is that?). It was BoatBums that said there was a penalty and she said she told me the answer many times but I just didn’t comprehend (nope). The truth is they know that the answer is eternal death, but they won’t say it because that means that their sacred goose/cow (OSAS) is cooked. They equate obedience to God with working for your salvation and nothing could be further from the truth. If you love God, you will keep his commandments because of what he did for us on the cross. Lawlessness will not be tolerated.
Basically, what it comes down to is they will say or do whatever it takes to not be responsible for keeping God’s commandments, and in poker, that’s eternal aces and eight’s.
You came up with the right answer and I wasn’t even asking you, so, good for you. I’ve asked them over and over and still no answer (I think I got some funny meme’s from Elsie). They refuse. They won’t. They can’t. You would think that all of these armchair biblical scholars could come up with an answer between them? Nope. Their silence is deafening.
But, I’ll ask them again anyway…What is the penalty for unrepentant sin?
On Ezekiel 18
30. Repent, and turn. Verses 30–32 constitute an appeal based on the principles of the justice of God’s dealings. When the counsel is given, “Make you a new heart and a new spirit” (v. 31), the prophet does not mean that man can save himself by his own power. But there is a part that man just act in the work of salvation. God can do nothing for man without man’s consent and cooperation. The meaning of repentance is not so clearly expressed by the Hebrew root, shub, as it is by the Greek, metonia. Nor does the English word always convey all that is bound up in this spiritual experience. The basic idea of shub is “to turn.” According to this definition, men turn from their sins. Metanoia is built on two words, the first, meta, which means “after,” and the second, nous, which means “mind.” The resultant meaning is to have a different mind afterward.
Sin has its seat in the mind. The soul must purpose the sinful act before passion can dominate over reason. The root of sin, then, is a bent of mind that causes man to choose the evil course. The solution to the problem is to correct this basic disposition. This is what repentance is intended to accomplish. A change must take place in the thinking of the individual. Since God never coerces the will, this act must be voluntary, but the Holy Spirit is given to aid the soul. It is quite impossible for the individual of himself to accomplish the transformation. But when he chooses to make the change and in his great need cries out to God, the powers of the soul are imbued with power from above and the propensity of the mind is corrected.
True repentance, then, is a function of the mind. It includes a thorough scrutinizing of the situation to discover what factors led to the defection, and also a study as to how similar errors can be avoided in the future. Repentance is the process whereby sin is expelled from the life. Once repented of, it can be confessed, and it will be forgiven. But confession without repentance is meaningless. God cannot forgive sins that are still active in the heart. This is the reason why the basic emphasis of the Scriptures is upon repentance rather than confession. Jesus’ fundamental teaching was, “Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand” (Matt. 4:17; Mark 1:15). Peter’s counsel was, “Repent, and be baptized” (Acts 2:38).
A proper grasp of the true meaning of repentance in its relationship to confession is essential to a successful spiritual experience. The reason many Christians fall so repeatedly into the same error is that they have never truly permitted the Holy Spirit to change their basic thinking with regard to that sin; they have never taken their sins to heart, to discover how, by the enabling grace of God, they might have complete victory over those sins.
Shall not be your ruin. Israel charged that God was unjust and caused their ruin. God declared that sin itself, which the sinner voluntarily chose, was their ruin. He may not acknowledge the justice of God’s ways now; but in that awful moment, when he conforms the Judge of all the earth, there will be heard from his lips the acknowledgment that God’s ways are just.
(SDA Bible Commentary)
Paul addresses this in Romans 7 and then starts Romans 8 with this gem.
Romans 8:1-2 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.
And why is that? Because of this.
Colossians 2:13-15 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.
He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.
The ENTIRE record of our sin debt was nailed to the cross.
There is no sin that we have committed that wasn't dealt with there.
In addition, the repentance isn't just turning from sin but rather turning towards Christ.
People can turn from sin well enough because of the destruction it causes in their lives and still go on to live a good life and be decent people, but that does not default mean they have turned to Christ.
It just means they have abandoned their sin.
It's embracing Christ that counts and turning to Christ usually does and ought to have within it, the abandonment of sin, but as a practical matter, we all struggle with sin, and yes, some of it may be unrepentantly for a while, but it does not cost us our salvation.
To say that all sin must be repented of to attain salvation, puts salvation strictly in the works category, which precludes it from being a gift and gives man a reason to boast about himself, and to demand God provide salvation because the person fulfilled their end of the *bargain*.
God is not beholden to anyone and making God so is a perversion of the gospel.
Salvation is a gift, free of charge, for the recipient, the cost of which is paid for by the giver.
Any *gift* that is conditional on performance ceases to be a gift, and becomes wages due for performance given or works done.
The other thing that the works folks ignore is that God does not allow a child of His to persist in unrepentant sin without making effort to bring him back to a godly, holy life. He doesn't save us and then leave us to fend for ourselves.
He corrects, convicts, gives grace and always gives a way out.
He's a loving heavenly father whose family we are in, not a harsh taskmaster waiting with anticipation for us to slip up so He can mete out justice, take that you lousy, rotten sinner.
The image of God portrayed by the works crowd is a perversion of His character.
The image of God portrayed by the works crowd is a perversion of His character.
The perversion is making God’s law of none effect.
Dragging passages from Ezekiel to support the assertion you imply is New Testament admonition is deceptive, but not unexpected from a Catholicism blinded poster. Why are you so deceptive, not even including the location of your citation, as if everyone will click on it -and you know they will not, so you are being deceptive on purpose. Without deception Catholicism could not exist! And you are a prime example of the methodology, not discerning and seeking to fool folks.
So far at least three have posted a response explaingin what your dead soul blindness refuses to apprehend. The cult has trained you well to feed the twisting deceptions. You are, in the main, disgustingly consistent in your deceit and falsehoods, cultist. Your inability to discern the superiiority of the New Testament Grace in Christ so you can focus upon the Old Testament admonitions of the law is quite telling and probably why you agree with the Catholic deceiver so easily.
Interesting
What it really brings out I’ve noticed after many years here is mostly a fight between the Catholic Church and itself
It’s a war here between those still Catholic and those who’ve left the Church for whatever other sect
The rest of us are just supporting cast
Ive known a number of anti Catholic folks in my life were born Catholic and raised in it but rejected it at some point usually for some evangelical nom
Most Catholics I know are ambivalent about religion
The devout and the rejectionist occupy bookends and the ambivalent the more broad space of the middle ...a minority of Catholics I have known would defend the Catholic Church the way many here do they simply don’t practice really but if asked will say they were raised Catholic
I don’t mean to imply I think this is good....it’s just an observation
Southern Baptists puts so much fear and discipline in you young that complete desertion of the faith is uncommon
Although that is changing too in the world of ours
More emphasis on your relationship with the Holy Spirit in your life as your guide and comforter versus your subordination to Gods will or what we might call behavioral expectations
This is happening in all but a few formerly hardline Protestant outfits
I’ve had explained to me personally by someone who I personally believes the Holy Spirit dwells in but it’s a new interpretation for me raised in a conservative church body 1960s Deep South
She btw.....was raised Catholic ...a non denominational Protestant now....almost charismatic
I think this is why ex Catholics go evangelical or charismatic too
Something more personal intimate
Once upon a time the Catholic Chruch sold Absolution and Redemption to Heaven for a price. Nothing has really changed.
The penalty for unrepentant sin is eternal death.
How fortunate that it is impossible for someone who abides in God’s grace to sin unrepentantly.
And all those who depend on their own works and believe false prophets cannot repent at all.
Which camp do you fall into, Phil?
What is the penalty for REPEATED sin that has been REPENTED before?
The whole hypothetical argument of a believer living in unrepentant sin is just that - it’s hypothetical.
What the problems are on many levels are…..
1) Anyone living in unrepentant sin is not likely a believer in the first place.
2) This argument is often posted by those who scream the loudest when someone else makes a comment about the state of their soul, and then hypocritically then sets up hypothetical scenarios and demand others make the very judgment they just condemned about a person that doesn’t exist.
3) As far as a believer living in sin or sinning, we all struggle with sins where we are weak. Paul addresses this in Romans 7. From the outside, it can look like living in unrepentant sin, but since we don’t know the heart, we do not know how the person feels about the situation they are in.
4) Romans 8:1 tells us that in spite of our struggle with sin as outlined in Romans 7, we are not condemned.
5) It is God’s place to determine the state of a person’s soul, not ours and it’s disingenuous to demand other believers make determinations that are only God’s purview.
6) Proverbs 6:16-19 There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him:
haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil,
a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.
It seems that some on this board are out to deliberately pit Christians against each other, putting themselves squarely in several of the aforementioned categories. They condemn Protestantism as being fractured and thus inferior to their preferred religion, and then turn around and deliberately try to provoke from believers the very thing they claim about Christians since they can’t find any real life examples to use.
That’s exactly what non-Christians demand.
Happily, that is God’s determination to make, not mine.
Don’t forget, In 2 Peter, the Holy Spirit refers to Lot as “righteous”, hardly a term I would use of a man with his lifestyle and choices, but then again, it’s not my determination to make.
OTOH, Jesus had a lot to say about the pharisees in Matthew 23, and those were the guys who kept the letter of the Law perfectly. So much for law keeping gaining anyone salvation.
That’s exactly what non-Christians demand.
Happily, that is God’s determination to make, not mine.
Don’t forget, In 2 Peter, the Holy Spirit refers to Lot as “righteous”, hardly a term I would use of a man with his lifestyle and choices, but then again, it’s not my determination to make.
OTOH, Jesus had a lot to say about the pharisees in Matthew 23, and those were the guys who kept the letter of the Law perfectly. So much for law keeping gaining anyone salvation.
7For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die.
8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
11And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
Romans 5:6-11 NASB
And how many times have we been lectured that “Once a Catholic, always a Catholic” and “Once a priest, always a priest”????
I would say, with many Catholics, that is true. It’s not true of all, of course. When a non Catholic (many years ago) led me to scripture, it certainly caused me to think. I thought about it so much, I left the Catholic Church, permanently. I am just not into false religions. 😀👍
RVG Placemarker
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