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Catholics Don't Believe You Can Earn Your Way to Heaven
Tradition | 03-06-2022 | CharlesOconnell

Posted on 03/06/2022 11:16:06 AM PST by CharlesOConnell

A man commits a serious crime, then he gets released. He has "paid his debt to society". But wait a minute, he's only ready for the half-way house. He's unlikely to get a prestigious job in his new prison suit coat, or any job at all; he has civil impediments, he can't vote or hold certain offices. His crime was serious enough that he won't be presumed to have been completely rehabilitated until he performs a notable service to society, or at least spends many years on the straight and narrow, so that his crime can be truly overlooked or forgotten.

In Catholic faith, your "debt to society" is paid by Jesus Christ on Calvary. It's called "eternal punishment", without Christ it keeps you from going to heaven. Supposing that you do take advantage of His sacrifice, you're truly sorry, have a firm purpose of amendment, if you relapse, you go again for forgiveness (to the Sacrament of Confession).

But your sin leaves a strong trace at another layer of impurity called "temporal punishment due to sin", like the civil impediments facing the half-way house prisoner. Because "nothing impure can enter heaven", there is a place or a state, a condition of purification to render you fit for heaven after Christ has finally saved you from hell. The Catholic Church calls it purgatory.

(Where is it in the bible? Where is the word Trinity in the bible? Where does it say that you only need a personal relationship with Jesus Christ? Many valid principles aren't stated explicitly in the bible, but it does say to "hold fast to the traditions you have learned, whether by word or by letter", because much of the Gospel wasn't written down, as Jesus only wrote in the sand, the majority of the Gospel was taught from word to ear to people who couldn't afford expensive books, the exceptions were what tended to get written down. But the implication that there is a purgatory, is contained in the bible--see the comments.)

The ex-con can receive a pardon or commutation of his probation from a Governor, if he performs some heroic deed, saving numerous lives, or, like Chuck Colson, performs a long-lasting, valuable community service helping numerous people who can't help themselves.

In the Catholic Church there are 2 ways for the residual, temporal effects due to sin to be expiated: suffering in this life, or after life, undergoing purifying suffering along with other people who will finally be saved, but have to suffer for long without the vision of God--that is what causes them their pain.

Their suffering isn't meritorious enough to grant their release, the saints in heaven and those on earth suffering and practicing virtue can pray for the suffering souls in purgatory. In no way is their release by slow transfer of suffering or practice of virtue, "buying heaven". It's a long, excruciating process.

How the misunderstanding arose that Catholics think they can buy their way into heaven, is involved with history more than 500 years old. For a millennium of Christendom between roughly 410 and 1410, there was a Medieval civilization with harmony between faith and government.

Many small farmers would cluster around the manor house of a military lord who would protect them, in exchange for a certain fixed obligation of labor and agricultural produce. In most cases, those "serfs" had much more leisure than factory workers of the industrial revolution; there were a large number of holy days without work, and except for planting and harvesting, there were long stretches of idle time.

Another large sector of the economy surrounded monasteries, where the monks developed most of the farming practices that stabilized the serfs and their manorial lords. The monks who worked those monastic lands were sworn to poverty, so that monasteries built up large accumulations of economic value over decades and centuries of labor.

At the beginning, when lands were being cleared and put into production there weren't prominent town fairs ruled by merchants and bankers. Money wasn't used for sustenance, not even much barter occurred, life was mostly agrarian.

Charity was woven into the economy of monasteries. It was estimated that you only need travel 12 miles in medieval England between monasteries, where you could get a meal and minimal lodging for free, based on need. And the charity was also spiritual, including the ancient Catholic principle of prayer for the dead, which is biblical. (See "prayer for the dead" in the original King James Bible in the comment.)

There were foundations and benefices for praying for the dead, that allowed a person of means to support monasteries' charitable works, and in proportional response the monks would pray for the souls of the donors.

It happened at the close of the middle ages, that militarily strong nobles cast their eyes on the labor value accumulated by the poverty-sworn monks of the monasteries, which those nobles perceived as monetary wealth, especially where gold and jewels had been donated by the devout to adorn churches.

(Protestant writer William Cobbett wrote in his 1824 "A History of the Protestant Reformation in England and Ireland", an anecdote, that an incredibly valuable, hand illustrated bible was stripped of it's bejeweled, gold cover, the much more valuable hand-illumined manuscript, thrown in the mud and trampled by horses hooves by raiders suppressing the monasteries in Henry VIII's England.)

A new religion growing up around this seizure of monastic lands and valuables, that sought to discredit the Catholic Church, spread the black legend that the "sale of indulgences" was abusive. But this was very exceptional. Today the stipend of a Mass said for the dead is $10.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Religion & Culture; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; catholicbashing; cult; dontbelieve; indulgences; praytomary
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Judas Maccabaeus sending 2,000 Drachmas to Jerusalem for Prayers for the Dead – Victor Wolfvoet II after Peter Paul Rubens (2nd Maccabees 12:36-45)

Now when they that were with Gorgias had fought long & were wearie, Iudas called vpon the Lord that he would shew himselfe to be their helper, and leader of the battell. 37 And with that he beganne in his owne language, & sung Psalmes with a lowd voyce, & rushing vnawares vpon Gorgias men, he put them to flight.
38 So Iudas gathered his host, and came into the city of Odollam. And when the seuenth day came, they purified themselues (as the custome was) and kept the Sabbath in the same place. 39 And vpon the day following as the vse had bene, Iudas and his company came to take vp the bodies of them that were slaine, and to bury them with their kinsmen, in their fathers graues.
40 Now vnder the coats of euery one that was slaine, they found things consecrated to the idoles of the Iamnites, which is forbidden the Iewes by the Law. Then euery man saw that this was þe cause wherefore they were slaine. 41 All men therefore praising the Lord the righteous Iudge, who had opened the things that were hid,
42 Betooke themselues vnto praier, and besought him that the sinne committed, might wholy bee put out of remembrance. Besides, that noble Iudas exhorted the people to keep themselues from sinne, forsomuch as they saw before their eyes the things that came to passe, for the sinne of those þt were slaine.
43 And when he had made a gathering throughout the company, to the sum of two thousand drachmes of siluer, hee sent it to Ierusalem to offer a sinne offering, doing therein very well, and honestly, in that he was mindfull of the resurrection.
44 (For if he had not hoped that they that were slaine should haue risen againe, it had bin superfluous and vaine, to pray for the dead.)
45 And also in that he perceiued that there was great fauour layed vp for those that died godly. (It was an holy, and good thought) wherupon he made a reconciliation for the dead, that they might be deliuered from sinne.
Second Maccabees 12:36-45, The King James version (KJV), 1611

For other foundation can no man lay, then that is laide, which is Iesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build vpon this foundation, gold, siluer, preciousstones, wood, hay, stubble:
13 Euery mans worke shall be made manifest. For the day shall declare it, because it shall bee reuealed by fire, and the fire shall trie euery mans worke of what sort it is.
14 If any mans worke abide which he hath built thereupon, he shal receiue a reward.
15 If any mans worke shall bee burnt, he shall suffer losse: but he himselfe shall be saued: yet so, as by fire.
First Corinthians 3:11-15, KJV 1611

1 posted on 03/06/2022 11:16:06 AM PST by CharlesOConnell
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To: CharlesOConnell

I think the faith vs works controversy is the result of a false dichotomy. Catholics believe that salvation is made possible by Jesus, but scripture makes it clear that God still judges us according to our actions. Without Jesus, even good actions would ultimately be unable to save us.


2 posted on 03/06/2022 11:26:20 AM PST by Steve_Seattle
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To: CharlesOConnell

Well it WAS one of Martin Luther’s beef with the Catholic Church... And the book of Tobit, that tacitly allows for indulgences, is included in the Catholic Bible but not the Protestant one.


3 posted on 03/06/2022 11:28:39 AM PST by Skywise
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To: CharlesOConnell
Mmmmmm

Well, the Biblical name for the Catholic Church is "Thiatira" (Revelation 2:18-29) which means "continuing sacrifice" even though Hebrews tells us, "this man [Jesus]... offered one sacrifice for sins for ever (Hebrews 10:12).

4 posted on 03/06/2022 11:29:32 AM PST by Jim W N (MAGA by restoring the Gospel of the Grace of Christ (Jude 3) and our Free Constitutional Republic!)
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To: CharlesOConnell

Catholics Don’t Believe You Can Earn Your Way to Heaven

Well, at least they got that one right!


5 posted on 03/06/2022 11:37:28 AM PST by SgtHooper (If you remember the 60's, YOU WEREN'T THERE!)
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To: Jim W N
"Well, the Biblical name for the Catholic Church is "Thiatira" (Revelation 2:18-29) which means "continuing sacrifice" even though Hebrews tells us, "this man [Jesus]... offered one sacrifice for sins for ever (Hebrews 10:12)."

That's a rather fanciful interpretation.
6 posted on 03/06/2022 11:47:52 AM PST by Steve_Seattle
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To: Skywise
And it creates earth based human based power structure and hierarchy. Not unlike a government bureaucracy where there are the rulers and the general population are the ruled.

Also, it is implied that only the rulers can provide salvation and redemption. The “rulers” have inserted themselves between the believers and God.

IMHO, this is wrong.

7 posted on 03/06/2022 11:48:08 AM PST by dhs12345
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To: CharlesOConnell

The best way to learn about a religion is not to study it directly but to read claims about it from other religions.

I’ve “learned” more that way than any other, usually learning the most about the religion making the claims.

*This comment is general and has nothing to do with Catholicism in particular. I’m not Catholic.*


8 posted on 03/06/2022 11:52:10 AM PST by SaxxonWoods (The only way to secure your own future is to create it yourself.)
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To: CharlesOConnell

A lot of Freepers escaped from the Church of Rome, so we can still smell the scent of BS. And it ain’t the incense and candles.


9 posted on 03/06/2022 11:58:42 AM PST by Old Yeller (A nation of sheep, produces a government of wolves.)
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To: Steve_Seattle
"Thiatira" (Revelation 2:18-29) means "continuing sacrifice"

You say Thiatira means something else?

10 posted on 03/06/2022 12:02:23 PM PST by Jim W N (MAGA by restoring the Gospel of the Grace of Christ (Jude 3) and our Free Constitutional Republic!)
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To: CharlesOConnell

Growing up Southern Baptist (still am), I was taught that there are 3 diagnostic questions to determine where a person is spiritually. Practically every Catholic I’ve ever asked gets 2 of these 3 questions wrong. But when you explain the right answer, they think and say, yeah that makes sense.

First, “Do you believe in God”. Catholics of course say Yes.

Second, “Do you know where you will go when you die?” Catholics almost always answer, “I hope I go to heaven.” I did have one recently say “I will probably go to purgatory for a very very long time”, but she was the exception.

Third, “If God met you at the Pearly Gates and asked you why should I let you into My heaven, how would you answer?” Catholics usually answer “I hope I’ve been good enough”.

The correct answer to question 2 is “I will go to Heaven”. A person trusting in Jesus should realize the promises in scripture and be reliant on them, and so be confident in their salvation. They should be able to say as Paul said, nothing in life nor death nor principalities, etc etc can separate me from the love of God.

The correct answer to question 3 is “because Jesus paid the price for my sins on the cross.” When you tell them, Catholics will think about that for just a moment and say “Yes, that makes sense.” So they recognize the right answer, but it’s not their day to day focus. Their day to day focus tends to be works as revealed by their answer.

And a focus on works isn’t necessarily wrong but they should have an awareness that their salvation is by grace not works. Good works are good, but they don’t save. And so their answer does worry me a little bit. Is their faith in the Grace of Jesus or their own works? Their quick recognition and agreement when confronted with the right answer gives me hope that their faith is indeed in Jesus not works.

And I once saw a 80 year old woman who had been a member of a Baptist church for years, a hard worker in the church, sat through sermon after sermon after sermon on grace, stand up one day and say “I get it now”. Her faith had been in her works, not grace. So it’s not just Catholics that need to guard against putting their faith in their own works. It can happen in any Christian organization.

I’m now going to preemptively address James comments when he says works are evidence of faith, I can show you my faith by my works.

James had people in his church who said “I believe” but they weren’t showing any changes in their lives. And James says “Even the demons believe” can such a faith save? Well the problem here is that demons believe Jesus is the son of God but they aren’t trusting Jesus for salvation. So James is distinguishing between “mental assent” and a “Trusting faith”.

A trusting faith should indeed given time and preparation result in good works. Those works are usually not instant. James warning should be taken to heart. If you’re not seeing changes, have you really placed your faith in Jesus?
The thief on the cross had no good works to speak of. Though some will point to his acknowledgement of Christ as a work. But then everyone who acknowledges Jesus has such a work.

Scripture actually says somewhere, I think in John, the will of the Father is that you believe. So if you’ve placed your faith in Jesus, then you have done the will of the Father.

But that “work” of placing your faith is different than a faith in your own performing good works to earn heaven. That “work” is the act of receiving God’s grace. You will never earn your way into Heaven.

When God forgives you, you are washed clean, and there is no condemnation. That’s why I don’t see a need for Purgatory. Purgatory from what? There is no condemnation. Either Jesus washed me clean or not. He took all my sins from past present and the future to that cross with him.

Should I then sin so that grace may abound as Paul asked. No. Scripture says God chastises those whom he loves. So the author’s comment about a temporal effect of sin is not wrong. It’s just not an effect that in my opinion requires purgatory or a price to be paid beyond the cross.

Sin usually has it’s own unpleasant reward, but in addition it can open a corrective can of Holy chastisement whoop-ass on me. I don’t fear loss of salvation. I don’t believe that is possible. I fear chastisement some. But I find that I try to avoid sin not so much because I fear chastisement, but that I don’t want to disappoint God.

He has after all granted me salvation and I praise him for that.


11 posted on 03/06/2022 12:04:29 PM PST by DannyTN
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To: Steve_Seattle

I’d say “continuing sacrifice” pretty much describes the Catholic Church.


12 posted on 03/06/2022 12:04:38 PM PST by Jim W N (MAGA by restoring the Gospel of the Grace of Christ (Jude 3) and our Free Constitutional Republic!)
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To: SgtHooper

We can buy our way into Heaven - just ask our Bishops who run the annual appeal. Or the Bishops who closed the churches during Covid while Wall-Mart and Home Depot stayed open. These same Bishops said keep sending in your offerings even though the Churches are locked down.


13 posted on 03/06/2022 12:15:53 PM PST by EC Washington
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To: Jim W N

The passage you cited refers to the consumption of food that had been prepared for sacrifices to pagan gods. It has nothing to do with the Catholic Church’s doctrine of the “holy sacrifice of the mass,” which was a later development. And however you may disagree with that doctrine, it refers to a re-enactment of the sacrifice of Jesus, not a sacrifice to some pagan god.


14 posted on 03/06/2022 12:16:25 PM PST by Steve_Seattle
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To: Steve_Seattle

ITs not a reenactment, nor is it a new sacrifice, but the same sacrifice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_TGkQIdjrY&t=1996s


15 posted on 03/06/2022 12:36:34 PM PST by FreshPrince
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To: FreshPrince

https://youtu.be/J_TGkQIdjrY?t=2280


16 posted on 03/06/2022 12:42:28 PM PST by FreshPrince
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To: CharlesOConnell
Protestantism was an inevitable result of the invention of the printing press, and the ability of individuals to interpret the Bible in various conflicting ways.

If the printing press had been invented earlier, then Europe would have split up into multiple sects before Islam decided to make its final push and Europe would now be Muslim rather than nominally Christian and actively agnostic and atheistic.

Europe would be gladly welcoming the Muslim hoards entering their countries rather than accepting them only out of misplaced guilt.

17 posted on 03/06/2022 12:47:30 PM PST by who_would_fardels_bear (This is not a tagline.)
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To: Skywise

“And the book of Tobit, that tacitly allows for indulgences, is included in the Catholic Bible but not the Protestant one.”

Because Martin Luther cut it out.

It’s in Eastern Orthodox Bibles.


18 posted on 03/06/2022 12:48:18 PM PST by vladimir998 ( Apparently I'm still living in your head rent free. At least now it isn't empty.)
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To: CharlesOConnell

It seems that the devil has done a pretty good job screwing up those who profess Catholicism. Keeping a believer chained to the Law not only keeps them in a constant state of sin awareness but then offers to relieve that state by “doing” something else.

A redeemed believer in Jesus Christ already HAS Heaven as his home. He is assured that God no longer holds his sins against him because of the Blood of Jesus Christ. There is no way FOR him to “do” anything on his own behalf for two reasons, it has already been DONE for him by Jesus, and because the Bible clearly states that without the shedding of blood there is NO forgiveness of sin.

So trying to “do” something on his own FOR sinning is actually spitting on what Christ already did, and reveals apparent his lack of faith in Christs perfect sacrifice for himself.

The Bible says that redeemed believers are DEAD to the Law, period. Believers are to be led by the Spirit of God to do what God intends for them to do, not for THEIR sake, but for God’s glory. The saying “RIGHT BELIEVIING IS WHAT LEADS TO RIGHT LIVING” is what is intended to happen after conversion. NOT a life long failing battle with the Law of Moses.


19 posted on 03/06/2022 1:01:40 PM PST by Democrat = party of treason
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To: CharlesOConnell

Sacrament of Confession is wrong. There is zero reason to have a middleman.


20 posted on 03/06/2022 1:19:32 PM PST by roving
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