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Judas Maccabaeus sending 2,000 Drachmas to Jerusalem for Prayers for the Dead – Victor Wolfvoet II after Peter Paul Rubens (2nd Maccabees 12:36-45)

Now when they that were with Gorgias had fought long & were wearie, Iudas called vpon the Lord that he would shew himselfe to be their helper, and leader of the battell. 37 And with that he beganne in his owne language, & sung Psalmes with a lowd voyce, & rushing vnawares vpon Gorgias men, he put them to flight.
38 So Iudas gathered his host, and came into the city of Odollam. And when the seuenth day came, they purified themselues (as the custome was) and kept the Sabbath in the same place. 39 And vpon the day following as the vse had bene, Iudas and his company came to take vp the bodies of them that were slaine, and to bury them with their kinsmen, in their fathers graues.
40 Now vnder the coats of euery one that was slaine, they found things consecrated to the idoles of the Iamnites, which is forbidden the Iewes by the Law. Then euery man saw that this was þe cause wherefore they were slaine. 41 All men therefore praising the Lord the righteous Iudge, who had opened the things that were hid,
42 Betooke themselues vnto praier, and besought him that the sinne committed, might wholy bee put out of remembrance. Besides, that noble Iudas exhorted the people to keep themselues from sinne, forsomuch as they saw before their eyes the things that came to passe, for the sinne of those þt were slaine.
43 And when he had made a gathering throughout the company, to the sum of two thousand drachmes of siluer, hee sent it to Ierusalem to offer a sinne offering, doing therein very well, and honestly, in that he was mindfull of the resurrection.
44 (For if he had not hoped that they that were slaine should haue risen againe, it had bin superfluous and vaine, to pray for the dead.)
45 And also in that he perceiued that there was great fauour layed vp for those that died godly. (It was an holy, and good thought) wherupon he made a reconciliation for the dead, that they might be deliuered from sinne.
Second Maccabees 12:36-45, The King James version (KJV), 1611

For other foundation can no man lay, then that is laide, which is Iesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build vpon this foundation, gold, siluer, preciousstones, wood, hay, stubble:
13 Euery mans worke shall be made manifest. For the day shall declare it, because it shall bee reuealed by fire, and the fire shall trie euery mans worke of what sort it is.
14 If any mans worke abide which he hath built thereupon, he shal receiue a reward.
15 If any mans worke shall bee burnt, he shall suffer losse: but he himselfe shall be saued: yet so, as by fire.
First Corinthians 3:11-15, KJV 1611

1 posted on 03/06/2022 11:16:06 AM PST by CharlesOConnell
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To: CharlesOConnell

I think the faith vs works controversy is the result of a false dichotomy. Catholics believe that salvation is made possible by Jesus, but scripture makes it clear that God still judges us according to our actions. Without Jesus, even good actions would ultimately be unable to save us.


2 posted on 03/06/2022 11:26:20 AM PST by Steve_Seattle
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To: CharlesOConnell

Well it WAS one of Martin Luther’s beef with the Catholic Church... And the book of Tobit, that tacitly allows for indulgences, is included in the Catholic Bible but not the Protestant one.


3 posted on 03/06/2022 11:28:39 AM PST by Skywise
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To: CharlesOConnell
Mmmmmm

Well, the Biblical name for the Catholic Church is "Thiatira" (Revelation 2:18-29) which means "continuing sacrifice" even though Hebrews tells us, "this man [Jesus]... offered one sacrifice for sins for ever (Hebrews 10:12).

4 posted on 03/06/2022 11:29:32 AM PST by Jim W N (MAGA by restoring the Gospel of the Grace of Christ (Jude 3) and our Free Constitutional Republic!)
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To: CharlesOConnell

Catholics Don’t Believe You Can Earn Your Way to Heaven

Well, at least they got that one right!


5 posted on 03/06/2022 11:37:28 AM PST by SgtHooper (If you remember the 60's, YOU WEREN'T THERE!)
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To: CharlesOConnell

The best way to learn about a religion is not to study it directly but to read claims about it from other religions.

I’ve “learned” more that way than any other, usually learning the most about the religion making the claims.

*This comment is general and has nothing to do with Catholicism in particular. I’m not Catholic.*


8 posted on 03/06/2022 11:52:10 AM PST by SaxxonWoods (The only way to secure your own future is to create it yourself.)
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To: CharlesOConnell

A lot of Freepers escaped from the Church of Rome, so we can still smell the scent of BS. And it ain’t the incense and candles.


9 posted on 03/06/2022 11:58:42 AM PST by Old Yeller (A nation of sheep, produces a government of wolves.)
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To: CharlesOConnell

Growing up Southern Baptist (still am), I was taught that there are 3 diagnostic questions to determine where a person is spiritually. Practically every Catholic I’ve ever asked gets 2 of these 3 questions wrong. But when you explain the right answer, they think and say, yeah that makes sense.

First, “Do you believe in God”. Catholics of course say Yes.

Second, “Do you know where you will go when you die?” Catholics almost always answer, “I hope I go to heaven.” I did have one recently say “I will probably go to purgatory for a very very long time”, but she was the exception.

Third, “If God met you at the Pearly Gates and asked you why should I let you into My heaven, how would you answer?” Catholics usually answer “I hope I’ve been good enough”.

The correct answer to question 2 is “I will go to Heaven”. A person trusting in Jesus should realize the promises in scripture and be reliant on them, and so be confident in their salvation. They should be able to say as Paul said, nothing in life nor death nor principalities, etc etc can separate me from the love of God.

The correct answer to question 3 is “because Jesus paid the price for my sins on the cross.” When you tell them, Catholics will think about that for just a moment and say “Yes, that makes sense.” So they recognize the right answer, but it’s not their day to day focus. Their day to day focus tends to be works as revealed by their answer.

And a focus on works isn’t necessarily wrong but they should have an awareness that their salvation is by grace not works. Good works are good, but they don’t save. And so their answer does worry me a little bit. Is their faith in the Grace of Jesus or their own works? Their quick recognition and agreement when confronted with the right answer gives me hope that their faith is indeed in Jesus not works.

And I once saw a 80 year old woman who had been a member of a Baptist church for years, a hard worker in the church, sat through sermon after sermon after sermon on grace, stand up one day and say “I get it now”. Her faith had been in her works, not grace. So it’s not just Catholics that need to guard against putting their faith in their own works. It can happen in any Christian organization.

I’m now going to preemptively address James comments when he says works are evidence of faith, I can show you my faith by my works.

James had people in his church who said “I believe” but they weren’t showing any changes in their lives. And James says “Even the demons believe” can such a faith save? Well the problem here is that demons believe Jesus is the son of God but they aren’t trusting Jesus for salvation. So James is distinguishing between “mental assent” and a “Trusting faith”.

A trusting faith should indeed given time and preparation result in good works. Those works are usually not instant. James warning should be taken to heart. If you’re not seeing changes, have you really placed your faith in Jesus?
The thief on the cross had no good works to speak of. Though some will point to his acknowledgement of Christ as a work. But then everyone who acknowledges Jesus has such a work.

Scripture actually says somewhere, I think in John, the will of the Father is that you believe. So if you’ve placed your faith in Jesus, then you have done the will of the Father.

But that “work” of placing your faith is different than a faith in your own performing good works to earn heaven. That “work” is the act of receiving God’s grace. You will never earn your way into Heaven.

When God forgives you, you are washed clean, and there is no condemnation. That’s why I don’t see a need for Purgatory. Purgatory from what? There is no condemnation. Either Jesus washed me clean or not. He took all my sins from past present and the future to that cross with him.

Should I then sin so that grace may abound as Paul asked. No. Scripture says God chastises those whom he loves. So the author’s comment about a temporal effect of sin is not wrong. It’s just not an effect that in my opinion requires purgatory or a price to be paid beyond the cross.

Sin usually has it’s own unpleasant reward, but in addition it can open a corrective can of Holy chastisement whoop-ass on me. I don’t fear loss of salvation. I don’t believe that is possible. I fear chastisement some. But I find that I try to avoid sin not so much because I fear chastisement, but that I don’t want to disappoint God.

He has after all granted me salvation and I praise him for that.


11 posted on 03/06/2022 12:04:29 PM PST by DannyTN
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To: CharlesOConnell
Protestantism was an inevitable result of the invention of the printing press, and the ability of individuals to interpret the Bible in various conflicting ways.

If the printing press had been invented earlier, then Europe would have split up into multiple sects before Islam decided to make its final push and Europe would now be Muslim rather than nominally Christian and actively agnostic and atheistic.

Europe would be gladly welcoming the Muslim hoards entering their countries rather than accepting them only out of misplaced guilt.

17 posted on 03/06/2022 12:47:30 PM PST by who_would_fardels_bear (This is not a tagline.)
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To: CharlesOConnell

It seems that the devil has done a pretty good job screwing up those who profess Catholicism. Keeping a believer chained to the Law not only keeps them in a constant state of sin awareness but then offers to relieve that state by “doing” something else.

A redeemed believer in Jesus Christ already HAS Heaven as his home. He is assured that God no longer holds his sins against him because of the Blood of Jesus Christ. There is no way FOR him to “do” anything on his own behalf for two reasons, it has already been DONE for him by Jesus, and because the Bible clearly states that without the shedding of blood there is NO forgiveness of sin.

So trying to “do” something on his own FOR sinning is actually spitting on what Christ already did, and reveals apparent his lack of faith in Christs perfect sacrifice for himself.

The Bible says that redeemed believers are DEAD to the Law, period. Believers are to be led by the Spirit of God to do what God intends for them to do, not for THEIR sake, but for God’s glory. The saying “RIGHT BELIEVIING IS WHAT LEADS TO RIGHT LIVING” is what is intended to happen after conversion. NOT a life long failing battle with the Law of Moses.


19 posted on 03/06/2022 1:01:40 PM PST by Democrat = party of treason
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To: CharlesOConnell

Sacrament of Confession is wrong. There is zero reason to have a middleman.


20 posted on 03/06/2022 1:19:32 PM PST by roving
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To: CharlesOConnell

I love these threads.
It really brings out the anti-Catholic bigots on FreeRepublic.


28 posted on 03/06/2022 2:49:50 PM PST by oldbill
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To: CharlesOConnell; ConservativeMind; ealgeone; Mark17; BDParrish; fishtank; boatbums; Luircin; ...
"Catholics Don't Believe You Can Earn Your Way to Heaven"

Meaning it does, as meaning the baptized are justified due to actual becoming holy (as the act itself of baptism makes one inwardly just), and merit eternal life "by God's grace." At length:

Basically, what is the Roman Catholic teaching on salvation?

The RC answer is "salvation by grace," but which means salvation by grace thru merit, that by the grace of God one becomes actually good enough to be with God. And which is akin to salvation as under the law, needing to reach a standard of perfection, except that according to Catholicism, more grace is given to actually attain to an even higher standard than that of the Law, and thereby meriting eternal life. However, since this is enabled by grace, then it is said to not be in conflict with salvation by grace thru faith, not of works (of the Law), and with merit being under grace, (which it is) and thus differentiated from earning. (CCC 2025) 

Rather than the believer being accounted righteousness by faith (Romans 4:5; 10:10) which faith purifies the heart in the washing of regeneration when one effectually believes the gospel, (Acts 10:43; 15:7-9; Titus 3:5) and which results in the fruit of obedience/holiness, (Romans 6:22) and which evidences that such are believers and which effectual faith God rewards the justified for, (1 Co. 3:8ff: but not that the believer attained his salvific justified acceptance with God due to his own holiness), the RC process of salvation begins at baptism which act itself (ex opere operato) actually make one righteous enough so that the baptized could go to Heaven if he died right then, before the sin nature that remains makes it manifest that he is not fit to enter Heaven, and which thus (usually) necessitates Purgatory, so that he may once again become good enough to be with God. To wit (emphasis throughout is mine): 

Baptism is a bath that purifies, justifies, and sanctifies. (CCC 1227) The Most Holy Trinity gives the baptized sanctifying grace, the grace of justification... (CCC 1266) Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. (CCC 1992) The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift...infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. (CCC 1999) 

Although the sinner is justified by the justice of Christ, inasmuch as the Redeemer has merited for him the grace of justification (causa meritoria), nevertheless he is formally justified and made holy by his own personal justice and holiness (causa formalis).” (Catholic Encyclopedia>Sanctifying Grace) 

Thus it is believed that the newly baptized, who are thus inwardly just, formally justified and made holy by their own personal justice and holiness, would go to Heaven if they died before they sin: 

By virtue of our apostolic authority, we define the following: According to the general disposition of God, the souls of all the saints . . . and other faithful who died after receiving Christ's holy Baptism (provided they were not in need of purification when they died, . . .) have been, are and will be in heaven, in the heavenly Kingdom and celestial paradise with Christ, joined to the company of the holy angels. (CCC 1023) 

However, since the unholy sinful Adamic nature is all too alive and manifests itself in these "inwardly just" (righteous souls), meaning that unless   they died having  attained to the level of practical perfection needed, then they are in in need of purification when they die:

Yet certain temporal consequences of sin remain in the baptized , such as suffering, illness, death, and such frailties inherent in life as weaknesses of character, and so on, as well as an inclination to sin that Tradition calls concupiscence. .. (CCC 1264) 

And thus, what flows from the original error of believing man must actually become good enough to be with God (rather than faith being counted/imputed for righteous, - Rm. 4:5 - and with obedience and holiness being evidential fruit of regenerating faith) is that of the doctrine of RC Purgatory, by which, besides atoning for sins not sufficiently expiated on earth, serves to make the baptized good enough to be with God. 

The Catholic Encyclopedia also states that St. Augustine "describes two conditions of men; "some there are who have departed this life, not so bad as to be deemed unworthy of mercy, nor so good as to be entitled to immediate happiness " etc. (City of God XXI.24.)  

And thus by the close of the fourth century was taught "a place of purgation..from which when purified they "were admitted unto the Holy Mount of the Lord". For " they were "not so good as to be entitled to eternal happiness ". 

One "cannot approach God till the purging fire shall have cleansed the stains with which his soul was infested." (Catholic Encyclopedia>Purgatory) 

All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. (CCC 1030) 


"The purpose of purgatory is to bring you up the level of spiritual excellence needed to experience the full-force presence of God." (Jimmy Akin, How to Explain Purgatory to Protestants). 

"Every trace of attachment to evil must be eliminated, every imperfection of the soul corrected." Purification must be complete..." "This is exactly what takes place in Purgatory." — John Paul II, Audiences, 1999; http://w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/audiences/1999/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_04081999.html 

Catholic professor Peter Kreeft states, 

"...we will go to Purgatory first, and then to Heaven after we are purged of all selfishness and bad habits and character faults." Peter Kreeft, Because God Is Real: Sixteen Questions, One Answer, p. 224

However, this premise of perfection of character for final salvation eliminates the newly baptized from entering Heaven (if they died before they sinned), since while innocent (not that the act of baptism actually regenerates, as  Catholicism teaches), yet they have not yet attained to "spiritual excellence," to  elmination of "every trace of attachment to evil," to "perfection of the soul," to the level of practical holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. 

And this premise would also exclude the contrite criminal of Luke 23:43 from being with Christ at death, yet who was told by the Lord that he would be with Christ in Paradise that day. And likewise imperfect Paul, (Philippians 3:13) who attested that to be absent from the body was to be present with the Lord. (2 Corinthians 5:7; cf. Philippians 1:23) And indeed it would exclude all believers who were told that they would be forever with the Lord if He returned in their lifetime (1 This. 4:17) though they were still undergoing growth in grace, as was Paul. 

In contrast, wherever Scripture clearly speak of the next conscious reality for believers then it is with the Lord, (Lk. 23:43 [cf. 2Cor. 12:4; Rv. 2:7]; Phil 1:23; 2Cor. 5:8 [“we”]; 1Cor. 15:51ff'; 1Thess. 4:17

And rather than Purgatory conforming souls to Christ to inherit the kingdom of God, the next transformative experience that is manifestly taught is that of being made like Christ in the resurrection. (1Jn. 3:2; Rm. 8:23; 1Co 15:53,54; 2Co. 2-4) At which time is the judgment seat of Christ And which is the only suffering after this life, which does not begin at death, but awaits the Lord's return, (1 Corinthians 4:5; 2 Timothy. 4:1,8; Revelation 11:18; Matthew 25:31-46; 1 Peter 1:7; 5:4) and is the suffering of the loss of rewards (and the Lord's displeasure!) due to the manner of material one built the church with. But which one is saved despite the loss of such, not because of. (1 Corinthians 3:8ff

Note also that the tradition-based Eastern Orthodox reject RC Purgatory, among some other substantial RC distinctives  

In addition, the whole premise that suffering itself perfects a person is specious, since testing of character requires being able to choose btwn alternatives, and which this world provides. Thus it is only this world that Scripture peaks of here development of character, such as "Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations." (1 Peter 1:6) The Lord Jesus, in being "made perfect" (Hebrews 2:10) as regards experientially  "in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin" (Hebrews 4:15) was subjected to this in the life.

Meanwhile the salvation by holiness via baptism and purgatory are all under the RC rubric of salvation by grace thru merit: 

The theological virtues are the foundation of Christian moral activity; they animate it and give it its special character. They inform and give life to all the moral virtues. They are infused by God into the souls of the faithful to make them capable of acting as his children and of meriting eternal life. (CCC 1813 ) 

Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods. (CCC 2027) 

"nothing further is wanting to the justified [baptized and faithful], to prevent their being accounted to have, by those very works which have been done in God, fully satisfied the divine law according to the state of this life, and to have truly merited eternal life." (Trent, Chapter XVI; The Sixth Session Decree on justification, 1547) 

"If anyone says...that the one justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit...the attainment of eternal life itself and also an increase of glory, let him be anathema." (Trent, Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 32. 

The term “merit” refers in general to the recompense owed by a community or a society for the action of one of its members..., (Catechism of the Catholic Church, #2006) 

Note however, that,

"With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man," "the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man's merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit." (CCC 2007-2008) 

However, this argument could be used for those who held to salvation under the Law, that by the grace of God they attained unto perfect obedience (and Paul as a Pharisee was blameless as concerning this: Philippians 3:6), whereas salvation by grace does not mean salvation by attaining to actual, practical perfection in this life or in Purgatory, but that of being accepted in the Beloved on His account, (Eph. 1:6) resulting finally in the resurrection of the body, which is the final conformity to Christ after this life. (1 John 3:2)  And with obedience with holiness in this life being its effects/fruits, but which effects are not the cause of justification, though works justify one as being a believer. (Heb. 6:9,10

And while God does reward faith (Hebrews 10:35) by rewarding the obedience of faith, (Mt. 25:31-40) and which obedience attests that one is a believer and thus it is appropriate that they be blessed, (Rv. 3:4) yet the "worthiness" here is not because moral attainment itself has made such accepted in the Beloved, and made them to sit together with Christ in Heaven,(Eph. 1:6; 2:6) and given them access to into the holy of holies in Heaven to pray, (Heb. 10:19) but as in conversion, it is because the faith that effects obedience is imputed for righteousness, (Rm. 4:5) eternal life being a gift, not a wage, (Romans 6:23) but in His grace God rewards the obedience of faith. (Heb. 10:35) Thus believers are exhorted, "Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward." (Hebrews 10:35

Moreover, the Catholic emphasis upon merit as obtaining eternal life not only leads to salvation via obtaining perfection of heart in this life or in mythical Purgatory, but it fosters just what the natural man expects, that if he does more good than evil then he can obtain Heaven. As expressed by this RC: 

I feel when my numbers up I will appoach a large table and St.Peter will be there with an enormous scale of justice by his side. We will see our life in a movie...the things that we did for the benefit of others will be for the plus side of the scale..the other stuff,,not so good will..well, be on the negative side..and so its a very interesting job Pete has. I wonder if he pushes a button for the elevator down for the losers...and what .sideways for those heading for purgatory..the half way house....lets wait and see.... ” http://forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=4098202&postcount=2

>One should not assume RCs know what Scripture or their church teaches on this or that the two fundamentally conflict, and that distinctive Catholic teachings not being manifest in the only wholly inspired substantive authoritative record of what the NT church believed (including how they understood the OT and gospels), which is Scripture, especially Acts thru Revelation.
See more on Purgatory vs. Scripture here, by the grace of God.

31 posted on 03/06/2022 2:58:30 PM PST by daniel1212 (Turn to the Lord Jesus as a damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save U + be baptized + follow Him!)
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To: CharlesOConnell

Sure they do.

That’s what “meriting” it means.

If you have to work to keep your salvation, the salvation is by works, IOW, earning it.


34 posted on 03/06/2022 3:26:15 PM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith…)
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To: CharlesOConnell
"In Catholic faith, your "debt to society" is paid by Jesus Christ on Calvary. It's called "eternal punishment"... But your sin leaves a strong trace at another layer of impurity called "temporal punishment due to sin", like the civil impediments facing the half-way house prisoner. Because "nothing impure can enter heaven", there is a place or a state, a condition of purification to render you fit for heaven after Christ has finally saved you from hell. The Catholic Church calls it purgatory. (Where is it in the bible?"..In the Catholic Church there are 2 ways for the residual, temporal effects due to sin to be expiated: suffering in this life, or after life, undergoing purifying suffering along with other people who will finally be saved, but have to suffer for long...-

The problem is not that purgatory is simply missing from the Bible, but that RC purgatory (which version even the EO's tend to reject) is contrary to the Bible. Which rather than teaching that having to be rendered fit for heaven after conversion by suffering for sin in this life or via the norm of postmortem purgatorial , suffering commencing at death, nor character purification (which you left out), Scripture teaches that every believer is completely forgiven and accepted in the Below and positionally seated with Him in Heaven, and wherever Scripture clearly speak of the next conscious reality for believers then it is with the Lord, at death or His return (whatever comes first). As shown already. (Lk. 23:43 [cf. 2Cor. 12:4; Rv. 2:7]; Phil 1:23; 2Cor. 5:8 [“we”]; 1Cor. 15:51ff'; 1Thess. 4:17

And which acceptance in Christ and entrance into glory to be with Lord is not due to actually becoming good enough via the act of baptism, and thus working to attain to that condition in this or hereafter, but which is on account of penitent, heart-purifying, regenerating effectual faith, (Acts 10:43-47; 15:7-9) being is imputed for righteousness, (Romans 4:5) and which is shown in baptism and following the Lord, (Acts 2:38-47; Jn. 10:27,28) and in seeking to become in heart and practice what they are positionally in Christ. (Philippians 3:7-12)

But which growth in grace is an effect and evidence of saving faith as believers who will go to be with Lord after this life, and not the cause of it. And as already said, the next transformative experience that is manifestly taught is that of being made like Christ in the resurrection. (1Jn. 3:2; Rm. 8:23; 1Co 15:53,54; 2Co. 2-4) At which time is the judgment seat of Christ And which is the only suffering after this life, which does not begin at death, but awaits the Lord's return, (1 Corinthians 4:5; 2 Timothy. 4:1,8; Revelation 11:18; Matthew 25:31-46; 1 Peter 1:7; 5:4) and is the suffering of the loss of rewards (and the Lord's displeasure!) due to the manner of material one built the church with. But which one is saved despite the loss of such, not because of. (1 Corinthians 3:8ff

To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 10:43-45)

And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. (Acts 15:7-9)

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (Titus 3:5)

Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. (Romans 4:4-8)

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; (Colossians 2:13)

And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Corinthians 6:11)

To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. (Ephesians 1:6)

And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: (Ephesians 2:6)

Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, (Hebrews 10:19)

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (2 Corinthians 5:8)

But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you. (Philippians 1:22-24)

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17)

For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. (Philippians 3:20-21)

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1 Corinthians 15:51-52)

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. (1 John 3:2-3)

And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him. (1 John 2:28-29)

" undergoing purifying suffering along with other people who will finally be saved, but have to suffer for long without the vision of God--that is what causes them their pain. "

You are stating your own interpretation of Purgatory as being simply caused by lack of the vision of God versus what many other RCs have stated, while as said, wherever Scripture clearly speak of the next conscious reality for believers then it is with the Lord, at death or His return (whatever comes first). Meanwhile the whole premise that suffering itself purifies and perfects a person is false, since real purification of character in perfection requires testing, being able to choose btwn attractive alternatives, and which this worldis the only place described as providing. Thus it is only this world that Scripture peaks of development of character, such as "Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations." (1 Peter 1:6) And which is for perfection of faith, which God works to do, not to escape Purgatory. The Lord Jesus Himself, in being "made perfect" (Hebrews 2:10) as regards experientially, was "in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin" (Hebrews 4:15) was subjected to this in the life.

Give it up. The redeemed are those who come to God as sinners knowing their desperate need of salvation - not as soul saved by their works or church affiliation, but as destitute of any means or merit whereby they may find salvation - and with a humble and penitent heart (that wants a new life following Christ) believe on the crucified and risen Lord Jesus who alone can save them on His account, by His sinless shed blood and righteousness. And who thus are baptized and follow Him (and repent when they find that they failed to do so). Thanks be to God!.

92 posted on 03/07/2022 12:55:54 PM PST by daniel1212 (Turn to the Lord Jesus as a damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save U + be baptized + follow Him!)
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To: CharlesOConnell

Once upon a time the Catholic Chruch sold Absolution and Redemption to Heaven for a price. Nothing has really changed.


190 posted on 03/12/2022 11:00:24 AM PST by Captain Peter Blood
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To: CharlesOConnell
Catholics Don't Believe You Can Earn Your Way to Heaven

Neither do Born Again Christians. There is no earned path to heaven, only a way to heaven. Getting to heaven is not even the goal; the goal is to bring heaven to your soul here.

John 3 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Yes, Nicodemus had the same thought as you; how in the hell do I get back in there so I can come out again, Jesus young man, you sound daft, what the hell are you talking about.

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

279 posted on 03/14/2022 4:54:22 PM PDT by MosesKnows
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To: CharlesOConnell

Later


937 posted on 03/26/2022 10:46:20 AM PDT by servantboy777
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To: CharlesOConnell

Later


938 posted on 03/26/2022 10:46:32 AM PDT by servantboy777
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To: CharlesOConnell

I know I’m very late to this party, but my friend’s husband used to be a priest and he definitely believes his good works will get him to Heaven.


1,727 posted on 04/06/2022 9:25:20 AM PDT by MayflowerMadam (When government fears the people, there is liberty.)
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