Catholics Don't Believe You Can Earn Your Way to Heaven

Tradition | 03-06-2022 | CharlesOconnell

[CharlesOConnell]

A man commits a serious crime, then he gets released. He has "paid his debt to society". But wait a minute, he's only ready for the half-way house. He's unlikely to get a prestigious job in his new prison suit coat, or any job at all; he has civil impediments, he can't vote or hold certain offices. His crime was serious enough that he won't be presumed to have been completely rehabilitated until he performs a notable service to society, or at least spends many years on the straight and narrow, so that his crime can be truly overlooked or forgotten.

In Catholic faith, your "debt to society" is paid by Jesus Christ on Calvary. It's called "eternal punishment", without Christ it keeps you from going to heaven. Supposing that you do take advantage of His sacrifice, you're truly sorry, have a firm purpose of amendment, if you relapse, you go again for forgiveness (to the Sacrament of Confession).

But your sin leaves a strong trace at another layer of impurity called "temporal punishment due to sin", like the civil impediments facing the half-way house prisoner. Because "nothing impure can enter heaven", there is a place or a state, a condition of purification to render you fit for heaven after Christ has finally saved you from hell. The Catholic Church calls it purgatory.

(Where is it in the bible? Where is the word Trinity in the bible? Where does it say that you only need a personal relationship with Jesus Christ? Many valid principles aren't stated explicitly in the bible, but it does say to "hold fast to the traditions you have learned, whether by word or by letter", because much of the Gospel wasn't written down, as Jesus only wrote in the sand, the majority of the Gospel was taught from word to ear to people who couldn't afford expensive books, the exceptions were what tended to get written down. But the implication that there is a purgatory, is contained in the bible--see the comments.)

The ex-con can receive a pardon or commutation of his probation from a Governor, if he performs some heroic deed, saving numerous lives, or, like Chuck Colson, performs a long-lasting, valuable community service helping numerous people who can't help themselves.

In the Catholic Church there are 2 ways for the residual, temporal effects due to sin to be expiated: suffering in this life, or after life, undergoing purifying suffering along with other people who will finally be saved, but have to suffer for long without the vision of God--that is what causes them their pain.

Their suffering isn't meritorious enough to grant their release, the saints in heaven and those on earth suffering and practicing virtue can pray for the suffering souls in purgatory. In no way is their release by slow transfer of suffering or practice of virtue, "buying heaven". It's a long, excruciating process.

How the misunderstanding arose that Catholics think they can buy their way into heaven, is involved with history more than 500 years old. For a millennium of Christendom between roughly 410 and 1410, there was a Medieval civilization with harmony between faith and government.

Many small farmers would cluster around the manor house of a military lord who would protect them, in exchange for a certain fixed obligation of labor and agricultural produce. In most cases, those "serfs" had much more leisure than factory workers of the industrial revolution; there were a large number of holy days without work, and except for planting and harvesting, there were long stretches of idle time.

Another large sector of the economy surrounded monasteries, where the monks developed most of the farming practices that stabilized the serfs and their manorial lords. The monks who worked those monastic lands were sworn to poverty, so that monasteries built up large accumulations of economic value over decades and centuries of labor.

At the beginning, when lands were being cleared and put into production there weren't prominent town fairs ruled by merchants and bankers. Money wasn't used for sustenance, not even much barter occurred, life was mostly agrarian.

Charity was woven into the economy of monasteries. It was estimated that you only need travel 12 miles in medieval England between monasteries, where you could get a meal and minimal lodging for free, based on need. And the charity was also spiritual, including the ancient Catholic principle of prayer for the dead, which is biblical. (See "prayer for the dead" in the original King James Bible in the comment.)

There were foundations and benefices for praying for the dead, that allowed a person of means to support monasteries' charitable works, and in proportional response the monks would pray for the souls of the donors.

It happened at the close of the middle ages, that militarily strong nobles cast their eyes on the labor value accumulated by the poverty-sworn monks of the monasteries, which those nobles perceived as monetary wealth, especially where gold and jewels had been donated by the devout to adorn churches.

(Protestant writer William Cobbett wrote in his 1824 "A History of the Protestant Reformation in England and Ireland", an anecdote, that an incredibly valuable, hand illustrated bible was stripped of it's bejeweled, gold cover, the much more valuable hand-illumined manuscript, thrown in the mud and trampled by horses hooves by raiders suppressing the monasteries in Henry VIII's England.)

A new religion growing up around this seizure of monastic lands and valuables, that sought to discredit the Catholic Church, spread the black legend that the "sale of indulgences" was abusive. But this was very exceptional. Today the stipend of a Mass said for the dead is $10.

[Philsworld]

Paul wrote this for you, Phil: Romans 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

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It is you that claims that born againers are exempt from being required to keep God’s moral law and therefore not subject to it (because you are aleady saved by grace). Therefore your carnal mind is enmity against God.

[MHGinTN]

Tsk tsk tsk, there you go again, trying to twist-characterize a post and fabricate your favorite, false witness. Are you repenting, Phil? ... No? You’re too perfected in your mind to do anything to repent of. Tsk tsk tsk, you fail with your taunting. Bye bye

[MHGinTN]

What arrogance from the cultist sda poster! You know the heart of Judas and God didn’t? You need to read the last few verses of John 6 again. So far you lack the comprehension to comprehend what the scriptures are telling us. Try harder, lost soul, try harder.

[Luircin]

I was being sarcastic when I asked if Phil was claiming to be God.

I had no idea that he was actually claiming miraculous powers.

[MHGinTN]

Yes, he is claiming he understands Judas in opposition to what the BIBLE tells us about Judas. I dunno, do you suppose Phil actually believes devils can be saved? That sounds like something Ellen White might have claimed, but then she was a false prophet ...

[Clemenza]

Most ex-Catholics in my circle (A lot) have become atheists or agnostics. There was a Pew poll that supported this anecdote a few years back but can’t find it.

Fastest growing creed period are the “nones” ie the non religious.

[Elsie]

I had no idea that he was actually claiming miraculous powers.

Maybe he's an incarnation of an apparition that some have claimed to be Mary; the Mother of GOD.

Aftar all, Rome allows her(it?) to have them kinda powers and yet still not be GOD.

[Elsie]

Most ex-Catholics in my circle (A lot) have become atheists or agnostics.

I've not a circle to refer to; but I've heard that most ex-Mormons experience the same fate: forever turned off by organized religion; after digging into the details of the LDS past.

[Elsie]

Fastest growing creed period are the “nones” ie the non religious.

Did you know that Mormonism states that ALL creeds are bad?

 

 

On October 15, 1843, the Prophet Joseph Smith commented,

“I cannot believe in any of the creeds of the different denominations,

because they all have some things in them I cannot subscribe to,

though all of them have some truth.

 

I want to come up into the presence of God, and learn all things:

but the creeds set up stakes, and say, ‘Hitherto shalt thou come,

and no further’; which I cannot subscribe to.” [1] 

 

---

Notes

[1] Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1976), 327.

 

And yet, as time went by, Joseph Smith wrote up the 'creed' for The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Later-day Saints.

It is known as The Articles of Faith.

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[Elsie]

 

The Articles of Faith outline 13 basic points of belief of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

 

The Prophet Joseph Smith first wrote them in a letter to John Wentworth, a newspaper editor,

in response to Mr. Wentworth's request to know what members of the Church believed.

 

They were subsequently published in Church periodicals.

They are now regarded as scripture and included in the Pearl of Great Price.

---

http://wordcentral.com/cgi-bin/student?creed 

 

One entry found for creed.Main Entry: creed 
Pronunciation: krd
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English crede "creed," from Old English crda (same meaning), from Latin credo, literally, "I believe" (used as the first words in many creeds), from credere "to believe, trust, entrust" --related to CREDENTIALS, CREDIT, INCREDIBLE
1 : a statement of the basic beliefs of a religious faith
2 : a set of guiding principles or beliefs

 

 

 

THE ARTICLES OF FAITH
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
History of the Church, Vol. 4, pp. 535—541

 

 

1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
   
2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.
   
3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
   
4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
   
5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
   
6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
   
7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
   
8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
   
9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
   
10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
    
11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
    
13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

 

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Mormonic/Eddy/Roman Placemarkerth!

[MurphsLaw]

Rituals to not make spiritual reality happen.

Sorry for the delay, but needed to offer you an in-depth reply..
So you did not agree with the biblical ritual evidence I sent you. You do not think God IS, or can be, pleased with our "ritual" actions- even though as God spares those Ninevites from destruction – this does not seem worthy to you?
Ritual, and rythm, has always been a part of God’s creation.
And Rituals of Sacrifice? Abraham halving the animals for Sacrifice and so on? The bible is full of examples of pleasing God in this way.
In the annual Ash Wednesday Gospel reading, Christ is not saying
"IF" we pray, fast and give alms...
But rather clearly,"WHEN" we pray, fast and give alms... "do it this way". It's NOT optional for us in what Jesus tells us in that Gospel... God expects us to pray, fast and giv alms among other things… and that when we do these things that he promises WILL increase our Faith...
Our very lives are ritualistic. You can say that rituals don’t “save us” and we can agree on that…
But you cannot say it does not make our Faith increase- or enhance our “spiritually reality” insofar as God will not Look upon those things favorably.
Now as far as the necessity of confession goes then, in John's Gospel , we are told exactly what the purpose for seeking absolution is about

9+++ If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. +++

We confess our sins in order to be forgiven, as a means of purification, and again it does not seem as an optional request that we must DO something, born of our own Free Will.

Luke 18:9-14 He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

You misunderstand this Gospel… back to rituals..it has nothing to do with not needing to fast or tithe. Those things are helpful, but they do not save us- I don’t know anyone who claims rituals save us. That's not what this parable is highlighting.
These verses are about humility and narcissism- against the boastful “look at me” self-assurance.
Nowhere does this parable say the tax collector didn’t tithe of fast either – since he was in the Temple praying, then we can assume he was most likely tithing and fasting as well.
Again though, the rituals are not important here because that’s not the message of the parable.
This parable warns of us of how our lack of humility, our lack of understanding God’s Mercy for us, obscures the penitential component for true repentance- keeping us from seeing the relationship God wants for us, and with us.
Contrite humility is required for us to approach God.

Actually though, I'm surprised you chose this particular parable to make your point... Look more closely at this parable… doesn’t the Pharisee remind you of a person who is so self-assured, so certain of his righteousness (salvation), that he can proclaim himself unabashedly to God in this condescending way, as that he is "so much better" than the sinner “doing” something in asking for mercy for himself?
The Pharisee seems so confident, so (falsely) proud... he has developed a mistaken ideal of his faith life based upon a false assurance he assumes?
And the tax collector asking God for mercy for whatever he did... doesn't he strike you as someone who is not so sure of his right relationship with God? A sinner who know that he MUST ask for Mercy to make right the wrong he seems to have committed?
Now the question comes… WHICH person in this parable would you choose to be? The one so self-confident? Or the one who knows he must do something to stay in a right relationship with God?

Confession is NOT a payment for sin.
Penance is not payment for sin, but rather is a Catholic construct to make people feel like they are doing something positive to procure salvation. We can’t. We can do nothing to add to the finished work of Christ on the cross.
If His sacrifice is adequate, then we can add nothing to it to complete it or enhance it.
If His sacrifice needs our involvement by works, then it wasn’t adequate in and of itself.

I hear this parroted all the time… “we can add nothing to the finished work”… except for we must DO some things- certain works that don't "add" to the Cross- but we must do anywyas...
St. Paul tells us we must confess our sins, other places in the bible requires we must repent of our sins- and Jesus said we must forgive others-
or our sins won’t be forgiven- and that no sin can enter heaven, and that it is better to enter eternity maimed or with one eye - than to live sinfully in our earthly life.
So if we don’t have to- or can’t- add anything to the cross…
Why do I have to confess, repent, forgive, and do these things the bible clearly tells us we MUST DO to in order to keep a right relationship with God…?

Either the “finished work on the Cross” is once for all and complete- or it's not...
Why then do we have to DO anything - which is definitely a work- when it comes to resolving sin? Don't call it adding then- but it is needed to complete, as it has been from the beginning.

Is there something about a guarantee of our inheritance that you do not understand? The Holy Spirit is our deposit, GUARANTEEING our inheritance, God’s words not ours.

I don’t think you are thinking this through..
You ask...."Is there something about a guarantee of our inheritance that you do not understand?

I understand it just fine- the guarantee is there- but it is a conditional one. You are a bit confused on this. We agree- Inheritance, like a "free gift" never has to be worked for. Never, ever.
An Inheritance is a Birth Right most often.
That's why infant Baptism is amost proper process of conveying God's Grace of regeneration.
The infant does not have to "Do" anything to receive that Grace, no work is required - unlike the doing-making of any verbal acceptance through a ritual like “accepting Jesus into your heart” stuff to receive that Grace.
Free is Free. We don’t have to do -or say- anything.

So here’s where it breaks down for you…
You can lose a gift, forget about it on a shelf, sell it or even throw it away later on. Nothing about the “free” nature of that gift - given freely- assumes that gift has absolute assurance. Because of Free Will- we can choose how we hold that gift. The free-ness of God's justification pertains only to his will to give it- not ours to hold on to it.
To say since it was Free, will make it last unconditionally forever is just in error, so we will always disagree there.
You do howevere liken it to an “inheritance” which we agree is another apt analogy.
But wait a minute. Lets look at another Bible parable… one that specifically deals with the “guaranteed” Inheritance you claim I do not understand.
You know the one.
The one where the one son asks for his inheritance from his Father, and the Father gives it to him to do as he wishes… and the son blows his inheritance on booze and broads.
He comes back after realizing the value he squandered, and the Father rejoices, celebrates him - as he was once Dead having pissed away his inheritance- but NOW he is alive again.
Had he not come back to his father- would he have continued to live, assuming then that a guarantee of inheritance still existed? Did he have a real chance of losing his inheritance?
Or did the prodigal son of the parable then have to DO something to be able to go back home, into a right relationship with the Father?

Did God not give his creatures Free Will, by which we can choose - or - lose the inherited Graces God freely offers and gives to us in this Life?

[Philsworld]

In Acts 1:24,25, the apostles came together to find out who would replace Judas Iscariot. The Bible states: “And they prayed and said, ‘You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.’”

A person cannot “fall” from something unless they were standing first on top of it. The only way Judas Iscariot could “fall by transgression” is if he were previously in a saved condition and unfortunately did not seek to return to the Lord. Judas began in the Lord but did not die in the Lord.

That’s biblical. You ought to try reading it sometime.

[MHGinTN]

LOL, you are so drowned in the cult think that you can't even hear what Jesus said about Judas: HINT ... Jesus does not extend salvation to devils, EVER

John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

...

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

Poor Phil, poor of spirit; Jesus chose Judas as one of the twelve BUT that does not mean He saved all twelve. Jesus NEVER saves devils. And THAT is biblical, unlike your twisted interpretation of what scripture means.

[MHGinTN]

All that verbiage and you ignore what GOD commanded against eating the blood and eating human flesh! Is the god of uyour religion so double minded that He would command something then command the opposite? And yoiu missed the letter the Apostles wrote, found in Acts 15. Murph, I fear for your immortal spirit!

[MHGinTN]

Think, Murph! Is God pleased with blasphemous rituals? Defying a Command repeated by God is, well, blasphemy to make it the heart of a ritual honoring Him.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

You have chosen to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.’”

A person cannot “fall” from something unless they were standing first on top of it. The only way Judas Iscariot could “fall by transgression” is if he were previously in a saved condition

"And having prayed, they said, Lord, you who have an experiential knowledge of the hearts of all, appoint the one of these two whom you selected out to receive the place of this ministry and apostleship, from which ministry and apostleship Judas fell away to proceed to his own private, unique place.

Wuest, K. S. (1961). The New Testament: an expanded translation (Ac 1:21–26). Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans.

That’s biblical. You ought to try reading it sometime.

You need a bit of a better translation - or perhaps to learn greek. Judas fell from the "place of ministry and apostleship." No evidence he was ever saved.

I commend Wuest's expanded translation to get the full greek translation - verb tenses, sentence structure, etc. Best

[MurphsLaw]

I fear for your immortal spirit!

Thank You for that !
And I, you... so you know...

We dare... because we care !

[MosesKnows]

Catholics Don't Believe You Can Earn Your Way to Heaven

Neither do Born Again Christians. There is no earned path to heaven, only a way to heaven. Getting to heaven is not even the goal; the goal is to bring heaven to your soul here.

John 3 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Yes, Nicodemus had the same thought as you; how in the hell do I get back in there so I can come out again, Jesus young man, you sound daft, what the hell are you talking about.

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

[Luircin]

Free will?

No such thing outside of Christ.

Without Christ and the regeneration of the Holy Spirit, your will is chained to sin.