The Heresy of the Pre-Wrath Theory

rev310.net ^ | 7/3/21 | Pete Garcia

[Cronos]

smvoice - it isn't about Irenaeus being whatever.

sasportas is replying to post 21 of r_w_c Darby agreed with Irenaeus, Tertullian, Cyprian, Justin Martyr et al if you would just read what they wrote.

This isn't a discussion on the merits or demerits of Irenaeus, rather on whether the pre-tribulation rapture was taught before Darby.

On that matter it is a factual that before Darby there was no one who preached or taught the pre-tribulation rapture.

[Cronos]

seen a dramatic difference between what the 12 were commissioned to preach, that is the Gospel of the Kingdom, and what Paul was commissioned to preach, that is the Gospel of the Grace of God.

Sorry, but this is false and comes out of the Muslim accusation that Christianity is "Paulinianity"

No, the Gospel that Jesus preached is one and the same whether it passed through Paul or Peter or John or Bartholomew or Thomas or Matthew

the Synoptic gospels were written to the community of Christians - whether of Jewish or Gentile origin

Look at Bartholomew and Thaddeus - who preached in Persia and Mesopotamia and look at Thomas who preached in southern India -- the earliest Marthomite Churches didn't have Pauline epistles yet they were preaching to and converting gentiles

[Cronos]

BDP - there is a difference between a heresy and a heretic

A heretic is a professed believer who maintains religious opinions contrary to those accepted by his or her church or rejects doctrines prescribed by that church.

So if you have a pre-tribulation rapturist group member who maintains an opinion contrary to that group, then that group of p-t raps can call him/her a heretic.

On the other hand if you are not a member of the p-t raps and hold a contrary opinion you, by definition, are not to them a heretic

The opinion you hold can be heresy to them - but that's a different think - a heretical philosophy is different from the people holding it

[Cronos]

If one believes the Church is the “Bride” of Christ how can they believe HE would allow his Bride to suffer the awfulness of Tribulation?

Jesus said

Matthew 5:11 Blessed are you when they insult you and persecute you and utter every kind of evil against you [falsely] because of me.

Acts 9:16 "or I will show him how much he must suffer for My name’s sake.”

Romans 8:17 "17 and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if only we suffer with him so that we may also be glorified with him."

Jesus said you should be prepared to suffer for his sake

What do you think the Christians tortured in the arena under Nero faced? What about the Christians burnt, raped and jailed and executed in Pakistan and Iran and Saudi Arabia feel about your "we'll get magically taken away"

That is arrogance - those people are true to their faith and pampered Christians in the West don't get to say they are not the Bride

[Bob Ireland]

Ping

[Cronos]

Correct. The escapism that the pre-tribulation rapture gives its followers is dangerous as, at the first sign of trouble, they will believe themselves abandoned

can you imagine them suffering the 1400 years under Islam that the Copts have done? or the Iranian Christians? Or the Pakistani Christians?

[Cronos]

I read the article and this has, before the theological errors, the errors in historical and wider beliefs as I'll enumerate below. Note - here I won't talk theology

1. The Roman Catholic Church (RCC) used their eschatological hermeneutics of amillennialism (which they adopted from Augustine) to justify that there was no literal Kingdom Come. They believed that they (the RCC) were the Kingdom and used this divine mandate to institute the power of the papacy, the Crusades, Indulgences, and the numerous Inquisitions, which resulted in the torture and deaths of hundreds of thousands -- Firstly, this is not just a Catholic point of view. The Eastern Orthodox hold that that the Kingdom of God is present within the Church and is communicated to believers as it interacts with them

The Copts, the Assyrians, the Armenians etc. all believe that the Church is the kingdom of God

This makes that statement of Petey's to be false

=====

Next amillennialism (which they adopted from Augustine) -- err.. false - amillenialism dates to the first century

Justin Martyr: Who is He that has united men that hated one another, save the beloved Son of hte Father?... It was prophesied of the peace He was to usher in.... Even now those barbarians cannot endure to be a single hour without weapons: but when they hear the teaching of Christ, straightaway, they raise their arms in prayer - INC, LII

Justin Martyr firmly believed that the peace promised in the Millennium had already arrived

Then, te Epistle of Barnabas - historical 1st century writing is that the seventieth week of Daniel was aready completed before he was writing.

Clement of Alexandria and Origen both held the amillenial view

Ditto Tertullian who wrote in 203 AD Vespasian vanquished the Jews... and so by the date of his storming Jerusalem, the Jews had copmleted the seventy weeks foretold by Daniel

These guys predate Augustine by centuries

[Cronos]

del the Apostle Paul and the church do not share the same Jesus and gospel.. -- and that's false, Islamic teaching.

Jesus is the same - "there is no Jew, no Greek in Christ"

[Philsworld]

can you imagine them suffering the 1400 years under Islam that the Copts have done? or the Iranian Christians? Or the Pakistani Christians?

---

Or the rein of terror that the Catholics put mostly Protestants through, torturing and murdering millions upon millions, all in the name of heresy?

1260 years of persecution by “God’s church”. And, it’s not over, according to the bible.

[Philsworld]

On that matter it is a factual that before Darby there was no one who preached or taught the pre-tribulation rapture.

---

You are correct. However, Darby and other based their PTR theory on the Jesuit Futurism theory. The PTR theory comes from Futurism (so does preterism).

[RaceBannon]

That’s actually false, the doctrine of a pre-trib Rapture is in the New Testament itself. And the idea that somebody named Darby invented it out of whole cloth is wrong also. There have been multiple documents found from the church defending a pre-trib rapture.

[BDParrish]

I’m proud of myself because I anticipated that your opinion would be that the term “heretic” still holds its historic denotation/meaning which you here describe as the deviation from the established standard. The traditional connotation would limit this deviation however to serious matters and to religious matters only. Outside of a religion context the word could be used metaphorically of course. In practical terms there should be some consequence such as excommunication, we Baptists say being “dis-fellowshipped”, church discipline, or ecclesiastical separation.

So Pete is suggesting that pre-wrath position is a test of fellowship, but I would be curious to hear if any churches are actually putting anybody out over this.

I do not exactly agree with you as a matter of grammar that the difference between heresy and heretic is an individual person’s membership within a group, but I can certainly see how a RC might see it that way. And when I say I disagree, I only mean that my observation is that when people commonly use the word they treat it as same word different part of speech. Language evolves away from clarity and specificity as the change is driven by usage among the ignorant. I do not know any person who could differentiate between the words apostate and heretic. The dummies get the final say, but that is another discussion.

FReegards cronos.

[Cronos]

BDP I’m proud of myself because I anticipated that your opinion would be that the term “heretic” still holds its historic denotation/meaning which you here describe as the deviation from the established standard

Actually you didn't

I made it a point to specifically state that you can be a heretic only if you fulfill two points:

1. you are a member of a group (let's say Star Wars fans)
   
   and
   
   
2. you hold a view that is against the group view (say that The Last Jedi is a good star wars flick)

If that view is held by someone who is NOT a Star wars fan (say someone who never watches sci/fi), then that person is NOT a heretic.

[Cronos]

err.. the pre-tribulation rapture is not in the New Testament.

Seriously - the pre-trib rap is stitched together from various bits and pieces out of context.

the pre-trib rapture
1. puts in a non-biblical 2000 year gap in Daniel’s vision
2. splits the 4th beast in two even though that is not indicated
3. ignores the Matthew/Luke correlation for the Olivet discourse wherein ignoring the great tribulation occuring in 64 AD to 67 AD, the “run to the hills” occurring during the siege of Jerusalem
4. ignores the apocalyptic writing nature of the book of Revelation and ignores that this was written before the destruction of Jerusalem
5. ignores that the Gospel of John, written AFTER the destruction of Jerusalem doesn’t mention the Olivet discourse because much of that was already FULFILLED

[delchiante]

Cronos,
According to the scriptures, Christ was born when the sun clothes the woman and the moon is under her feet.

That sign happens yearly. In the fall.
It happened in the summer a couple thousand years ago.
The scriptures call it a New Moon Day.

According to scripture, He was circumcised on the 8th day, according to the law.
According to scripture, the Father’s 8th day of every month is the Fathers 7th Day Sabbath.
It occurs after 1 New Moon Day, 6 work days, then the Sabbath(Ezekiel 46:1)

According to law,He was to be circumcised 40 days after His birth.

40 days after the New Moon Day of one month is the 10th day of the next month.
The scriptures have one 10th Day of a month where it is a Sabbath. A Holy Convocation. A Day of Fasting and Praying night and Day.
You can read about it in Leviticus 23:27-32.
Recall the New Covenant scriptures and Anna the Prophetess.
That Day of Atonement is exactly the day He was presented in the temple.
And eventually the Day He began His ministry 30 years later.

That’s the Word Made Flesh birth, circumcision and Presentation in the temple, according to scripture.

Please note that is nowhere near the Beast and Antichrist December 25,January 1 or February 2.

Do we really have to go into Paul’s 1st importance of the gospel as I have explained before, Cronos, that Passover,in accordance with the scriptures, is not the same as The Beast and Antichrist false goddess frigg day.

Great example is just this year.
Paul’s first importance of the gospel, Passover, Unleavened Bread and First Fruits, or the 14th,15th,16th days of His 1st month, was found to land on the Beast and Antichrist sun day, moon day, false God tiws day.
March 28,29,30.
Those 3 days,according to scripture, are the Father’s 6th day, 7th day Sabbath and 1st work day.

But to the Beast and Antichrist,they are the 1st,2nd,3rd work days.

The church doesn’t get His birth right.
The church doesn’t get the first importance of the gospel,His death,burial and resurrection, right.

And it’s somehow labeled an Islamic false teaching?
Weak sauce Cronos.

Islam didn’t teach me Truth.
The scriptures do.

Islam and Judaism needs the Beast and Antichrist to hang around.
What would the two Antichrist religions do without their false goddess frigg day and false God saturn day.. and all the rest of the Beasts and Antichrist counterfeits..

They would be force to admit their fathers inherited nothing but lies.

The scriptures have alternatives to December 25,January 1, February 2, Good false goddess frigg day, false God saturn day and false God sun day.

Almost like there is a completely different Jesus that the world doesn’t get to learn these days.
A different Jesus than Peter and Paul encountered
A Jesus that isn’t the Passover Lamb.

Certainly thats another Jesus than what Paul taught.
Paul taught the Passover Lamb.

The scriptures are the only weapon one has.
It’s the scriptures that expose the false doctrines.
One must be led to test and prove all things, though.
Tough in this world of conformity to the Beast and Antichrist teaching and systems.

Not an Islamic teaching.
If you really want Islam to fall,expose their false goddess frigg day.
It means nothing to the God of Abraham.
It’s not even His 6th work day.
Passover is.
Those who have the Son,the Passover Lamb, can know that.
But it flies in the face of what the Beast and Antichrists believe and teach.
Who wants to buy Passover,gold refined by fire,when the Beast forces the world to buy and sell false goddess frigg day..

[Cronos]

Del According to the scriptures, Christ was born when the sun clothes the woman and the moon is under her feet.

Nope - Christ was born in a stable as seen in Matthew

The book of Apocalypse is symbolic and shows what is envisioned from heaven - not from earth. That's apparent in the text

1 [a]A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman[b] clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.

2 She was with child and wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth.[c]

3 Then another sign appeared in the sky; it was a huge red dragon,[d] with seven heads and ten horns, and on its heads were seven diadems.

4 Its tail swept away a third of the stars in the sky and hurled them down to the earth.

..14 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle,[k] so that she could fly to her place in the desert, where, far from the serpent, she was taken care of for a year, two years, and a half-year.

Just for your information 1/3rd of the stars didn't fall on the earth at the time of Jesus' birth - it's a symbolism of the fall of the angels. And Mary didn't suddenly sprout wings of an eagle either.

Dude - go back to saying that everyone has their calendars wrong except you

[Cronos]

The Islamic teaching that you espouse in parallel with them is separating out what the Gospels say from what Paul taught

Paul didn't teach something different from Jesus - no matter what you or the mullahs say

[RaceBannon]

Error... yes it is. And if you want to read a good book you showing where dispensationalist theology was taught many years ago I want you to get the book titled dispensationalism before Darby, written by William C Watson. It has many quotes from ancient sources that predate Darby by centuries. So I don’t know where you come up with these phony theological arguments to dismiss a clear biblical Doctrine. If you can’t understand the Bible, maybe it’s because you don’t have the spirit in you.

[RaceBannon]

The next book I would tell you to read is called Maranatha, our Lord come, by Reynold showers

[Kevmo]

It seems the original post article suggests the group under considerations is christians and the heretics would be those who disagree with him on escaetology issues.