Posted on 06/07/2021 5:23:12 PM PDT by Its All Over Except ...
The Talmud/Mishnah states that the Masoretic Text (a medieval text used by the KJV, NIV, NASB, etc) was corrupted as the Talmud/Mishnah described conflicting texts, contradictions, and multiple, competing rabbis intentionally altering scriptures and thus they ultimately corrupted it). The Septuagint (translated in the mid 3rd century BC) is far older than the Masoretic Text (MT) and the MT isn't original scripture and not a BC text anyway.
Paleo Hebrew, used after Moses' time and used from the 12th to 6th century BC (around 2,000 years older than the MT), gave way to Square Hebrew (around 1,300 years older than the MT), which then eventually gave way to Greek, as evidenced by the Septuagint, which is around 1,000 years than the MT. The Septuagint predates Christianity, used when Greek became the lingua franca, and its use in synagogues around the Mediterranean was substantial.
Paleo Hebrew, Square Hebrew, and the Septuagint (LXX) within the Dead Sea Scrolls (DSS) preserve the originals, and overwhelmingly disagree with the MT in numerous instances; the Septuagint predates Christianity and scrolls from it are found within the Dead Sea Scrolls.
1.) Exodus 1:5 in the DSS agrees with the Septuagint against the MT/KJV/NABRE/NASB/NIV/RSV/RSVCE/ that all the souls from Jacob were 75, not 70, thus agreeing with St. Stephen in Acts 7:14.
2.) The older DSS, the Samaritan Pentateuch, Aramaic Targums, etc, agree with the Septuagint against the MT (and KJV/NASB/NIV) for Deut. 32:8-9 in using sons/angels of God and not sons of Israel.
3.) The DSS for Deuteronomy 32:43 lines up with the Septuagint against the MT (and KJV/NABRE/NASB/NIV/RSV/RSVCE) saying the angels are to worship messiah.
4.) The Septuagint for 1 and 2 Samuel are backed up by 3 DSS and the MT is known among scholars as botching 1 and 2 Samuel badly.
5.) The MT wrongly (some evidence for #4) has Saul becoming king at age one and ruling for two years.
6.) The MT actually left out an entire line from Psalm 145 that the DSS and the Septuagint preserved, thus the so-called masters of vowel memorization not only forgot vowels but also consonants.
7.) Psalm 40:6(7): a messianic proof text for the Incarnation:
The MT (and KJV/NABRE/NASB/NIV/RSV/RSVCE): Thou hast dug out my ears.
The Septuagint: A body thou hast prepared me.
8.) Concerning another messianic psalm, Psalm 22:16, the DSS agrees with the Septuagint against the MT.
9.) Baruch, Sirach, Tobit, and Psalm 151 are written in Hebrew in the DSS.
10.) ▪︎The chronology of Genesis 11 and the year of the flood of the Paleo Hebrew and the Septuagint line up against the MT. Shem is not Melchizedek:
▪︎Literary sources before 100 AD that agree with the LXX: 2 Esdras, Josephus and Philo (30/70 AD) did not use the Septuagint but used Square Hebrew texts to come to their conclusion that lines up with the Septuagint.
▪︎Eupolemus, the Jewish 2nd century BC historian's chronology, comes close to aligning with the Paleo Hebrew and Septuagint and against the MT.
▪︎Jewish Demetrius the Chronicler's (3rd century BC) chronology comes very close to the Paleo Hebrew and Septuagint and against the MT.
*Justin Martyr said the scriptures were being altered in his time period. See Jeremiah 8:8.
▪︎https://biblearchaeology.org/research/biblical-chronologies/4349-mt-sp-or-lxx-deciphering-a-chronological-and-textual-conundrum-in-genesis-5
Since synagogues around the Mediterranean used the Septuagint and Square Hebrew, even in Palestine, Greek was the lingua franca, Jesus grew up near Sepphoris where Hebrew and Greek were both spoken and where Joseph could ply his trade, Christ quoted the scriptures, spoke to the Syrophoenician woman, and Mark/Luke were written to Romans/Greeks, some will be hard-pressed to prove Jesus used only Hebrew.
Outside Judea, close to 100% of the diaspora synagogue inscriptions are in Greek. In Judea, where the default language is Aramaic, 80% of synagogue inscriptions are in Greek.
Some have said the Deuterocanon was never written in Hebrew but the DSS (Dead Sea Scrolls) proved that to be false as at least 3 so far (Baruch, Sirach, and Tobit of the Deuterocanon), have been found within the DSS written in Hebrew, and using the word "recension" against them is a continual knee-jerk reaction to the Deuterocanon being written in Hebrew and thus a moving of the goal posts.
Concerning key messianic scriptures, Catholics, Copts, Orthodox, and Protestants see that the leaven of the rabbis and then later the Masoretes seemed to target scriptures that point to Jesus Christ. (Matthew 16:6).
The Paleo Hebrew, Square Hebrew, and the Septuagint all agree with each other against the MT far more than they disagree, thus the starting point is to sideline the MT in favor of the totality of the Septuagint, Paleo Hebrew, Samaritan Pentateuch, Aramaic Targums, Peshitta, Codex Vaticanus, Sinaiticus and others which provide substantially older Old Testaments.
There are dozens and dozens of instances where the Paleo Hebrew, Square Hebrew, and the Septuagint agree against the MT: By the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses let every word be established. Deut. 19:15; 2 Cor. 13:1.
Given that Septuagint scrolls were found with Paleo Hebrew and Square Hebrew scrolls in the DSS, one would again be hard-pressed to prove that Christians composed the Septuagint and, as well, the Torah was translated into Greek from 283-246 BC under Ptolemy II Philadelphus and the prophets and writings within the next 100 years.
Septuagint Chronicles is quoted by Eupolemos in the middle of the 2nd century BC, and Septuagint Job by Pseudo-Aristeas in the beginning of the 1st century BC thus Christians and certainly not Origen created it. Furthermore...
The translation of Isaiah contains allusions to historical situations and events that point to the years 170-150 BCE" (Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible, Emanuel Tov, p 131, 2012).
Septuagint fragments found at Qumran (Lev.), the Nahal Hever (Habbakuk, near Ein Gedi), dated 50 BC, Deut. fragments dates 2nd century BC.
Proseuche (forerunner to the synagogue) foundation stones in Egypt are dated 120 to 240 BC. If you gather in a church or synagogue, its origins are found in Hellenistic Egypt as they are foreign to temple-only thought. The synagogue ultimately spread to Israel along with the Septuagint (Theodotus inscription, in Greek, a synagogue in Jerusalem, 1st century AD).
Archaeological surveys "...of Palestinian synagogue inscriptions revealed that 67 were in Greek, 54 were in Aramaic and 14 in Hebrew. Most of the Greek inscriptions were found in the coastal and important inland cities." (Caesarea under Roman rule, Lee Levine).
Concerning archeological findings: the Delos synagogue dates to 250 BC and the Magdala synagogue: dates to 50 BC.
There was almost exclusive use of Greek in all synagogue inscriptions everywhere in the world.
I prefer to use what is to me a more precise term of Rabbinical Jewish meaning the other sect of Judaism that survived the destruction of the temple.
Christianity, reading historically and in the Bible and Talmud is really a sect of 2nd temple Judaism - it takes the old testament books, it rejects Marcionite/Gnostic concepts of the Godhead, and it retains the concept of Judaic sacrifices with the caveat that these were superseded by Jesus' sacrifice
Pharisee sect 2nd temple Judaism had already partially replaced the priests with the rabbis and after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD basically reinvented or invented a religion without the sacrifices in the temple (which were KEY to the Sadducees, etc.) and then built up a monumental theology that we see in the extremely complex Talmud
christianity and rabbinical judaism are competing sects of 2nd temple Judaism. Rabbinical Judaism in its earlier avatar (apologies for dropping in Sanatana Dharma terms here) as Pharisee Judaism did win over Christianity until 70 AD and was seemingly triumphant until 132 AD and the failure of the last of the Jewish Messiah figures - Bar Kochkba (son of the Star, i.e. Son of God that was the term used for the leader of that last Jewish rebellion).
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with regards to Phinneous' point of Alma
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The Hebrew word for “young virgin” was alma. The Hebrew word for virgin was bethula, which did not specify age or purity. Alma, however, had a twofold meaning. alma denotes not only “maiden” or “virgin” but “hidden,” “secret’, “that is, one never exposed to the gaze of men but kept under close custody by her parents.” Hence, the Septuagint rendering of Isaias 7:14 did not use any of the several Greek words for “girl,” rather, these Jewish scholars used the Greek word parthenos, which means, exclusively, “virgin.”
Although there may be exceptions among Jewish writers from from the early Christian centuries (Trypho the Jew, whom Saint Justin [+165] debated in his Dialogues, is allegedly one), generally speaking, the Jews understood the Isaian verse to mean “young virgin.” This was certainly the case in the second century before Christ. The reason I say that Trypho is “allegedly” one is that modern Jewish scholars believe that Trypho was a fictional character invented by Justin for polemical purposes to refute Jewish arguments then used by rabbis (some scholars think the main one was Rabbi Tarphon mentioned in the Talmud) to deny that Jesus was the Messiah.
The Hebrew word alma is used seven times in the inspired text of the Old Testament. It always means “a young maiden” and in two cases it explicitly can only mean “virgin.” The first time it is so employed in the explicit and latter sense is when Abraham’s servant is explaining to Laban, Rebecca’s brother, how he had prayed to the Lord saying “…and may it be that the maiden (“alma”) who comes out to draw [water]…” would be the right woman to become Isaac’s bride” (Gen. 24:43). Earlier in the chapter, a description of Rebecca is given in verse 16 which says, “And the girl was very beautiful, a virgin (alma), and no man had had relations with her…”
Where might I read up on the history of Paleo-Hebrew?
I personally agree that it likely post-dates Moses, but the word “likely” and the phrase “I personally agree” beg for a better foundation.
(I do have some knowledge in the field, but not so much that I would care to have anyone adopting my opinion because it happens to be my opinion).
The books of the Maccabees are KEY to understanding the context in which Jesus was born, lived and preached.
The reason the English removed those books from the 1885 onwards versions of the KJV (they were in the original versions) is is that the Romans, essentially by treaty, worked with Jonathon Maccabee to protect his people from his enemy in exchange for his country becoming part of the Roman Empire. It portrays Rome as the good guy, which go against much of the thesis of the Reformation in breaking from the Roman Catholics.
a Bible without the Apocrypha is like buying a book with an important section missing from it! Why would anyone in their right mind do that? The Apocryphal books are invaluable in my opinion and add important details to events in our Bibles.
For me it is strange that many non-Catholic groups take the Masoretic texts and reject the Septuagint, when the MT as you correctly point out was a post 70 AD explicitly anti-Jesus movement agenda
A Bible without the Apocrypha is like buying a book with an important section missing from it! Why would anyone in their right mind do that? The Apocryphal books are invaluable in my opinion and add important details to events in our Bibles.
I presume that Our Lord Himself (and our Lady and St. Joseph when they were working at home together) all received the psalms and recited the Septuagint? This article would seem to support that theory. Thoughts?
Thus, using Old Testament Greek texts is useful, but one must be wary of the conclusion that all ancient Old Testament Greek texts are uniform in content.
Even with our bibles we must be wise as serpents...And prayer is “king”, even more so than any bible.
Excellent threat to all the Freepers who posted. To those of us interested in textual criticism this was fascinating.
Threat = thread.
The copying of a Torah scroll is meticulously regulated by Halakhah to insure that each scroll will be a reproduction of the original scroll written by Moses at G-d's dictation. One of the rules is that every new scroll must be copied from an already existing scroll. This means the text of a kosher Sefer Torah goes all the way back.
I bet you're one of those folks who make fun of "rednecks" for thinking the KJV is superior to all other versions.
Good on the switch from Paleo, but I’m more interested in the switch to Paleo
Israeli Scholars Discover Corrections, Erasures, Revisions in Oldest Biblical Manuscript
Analysis of Leningrad Codex shows that about a millennium ago, there were several different versions of the Bible that evolved over time
And the Masoretes left out an entire line in Psalm 145, they had Saul becoming king at age 1 and ruling for how long? Oh yeah, the Masoretes were real real experts in their field all right. /sarcasm.
Next time, try to devise better arguments than deflecting to trying to make it about me as you did in your post and flailing in the process.
And there’s a whole lot more besides that article that shows the same thing.
Thus why the switch from Square Hebrew to the Septuagint in the 3rd century BC, with the Prophets and Writings translated to Greek about a century later as shown in the OP, was necessary and thankfully came about.
As said earlier, Septuagint Chronicles is quoted by Eupolemos in the middle of the 2nd century BC, and Septuagint Job by Pseudo-Aristeas in the beginning of the 1st century BC thus Christians and certainly not Origen Correction: DID NOT create it. Furthermore...
The translation of Isaiah contains allusions to historical situations and events that point to the years 170-150 BCE” (Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible, Emanuel Tov, p 131, 2012).
I don’t have any - but I’m currently reading this — http://www.anijudaism.com/blog/is-paleo-hebrew-actually-the-oldest-hebrew
What is fascinating to me is how similar the Canaanite i.e. Phoenicians and the Hebrews were - linguistically, genetically and culturally. This is fascinating when you see the constant injunctions against the Canaan people in the Pentateuch
If you can stay awake for the second half of Joshua or pick up on the more subtle parts of Judges, it isn’t surprising at all.
It’s All Over HATES Dr Michael Brown:
https://torahresource.com/paleo-hebrew-validity-hermeneutical-tool/
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