Don't worry Elsie.
Some folks say my cackle ain't funny either.
Posted on 06/07/2021 5:23:12 PM PDT by Its All Over Except ...
The Talmud/Mishnah states that the Masoretic Text (a medieval text used by the KJV, NIV, NASB, etc) was corrupted as the Talmud/Mishnah described conflicting texts, contradictions, and multiple, competing rabbis intentionally altering scriptures and thus they ultimately corrupted it). The Septuagint (translated in the mid 3rd century BC) is far older than the Masoretic Text (MT) and the MT isn't original scripture and not a BC text anyway.
Paleo Hebrew, used after Moses' time and used from the 12th to 6th century BC (around 2,000 years older than the MT), gave way to Square Hebrew (around 1,300 years older than the MT), which then eventually gave way to Greek, as evidenced by the Septuagint, which is around 1,000 years than the MT. The Septuagint predates Christianity, used when Greek became the lingua franca, and its use in synagogues around the Mediterranean was substantial.
Paleo Hebrew, Square Hebrew, and the Septuagint (LXX) within the Dead Sea Scrolls (DSS) preserve the originals, and overwhelmingly disagree with the MT in numerous instances; the Septuagint predates Christianity and scrolls from it are found within the Dead Sea Scrolls.
1.) Exodus 1:5 in the DSS agrees with the Septuagint against the MT/KJV/NABRE/NASB/NIV/RSV/RSVCE/ that all the souls from Jacob were 75, not 70, thus agreeing with St. Stephen in Acts 7:14.
2.) The older DSS, the Samaritan Pentateuch, Aramaic Targums, etc, agree with the Septuagint against the MT (and KJV/NASB/NIV) for Deut. 32:8-9 in using sons/angels of God and not sons of Israel.
3.) The DSS for Deuteronomy 32:43 lines up with the Septuagint against the MT (and KJV/NABRE/NASB/NIV/RSV/RSVCE) saying the angels are to worship messiah.
4.) The Septuagint for 1 and 2 Samuel are backed up by 3 DSS and the MT is known among scholars as botching 1 and 2 Samuel badly.
5.) The MT wrongly (some evidence for #4) has Saul becoming king at age one and ruling for two years.
6.) The MT actually left out an entire line from Psalm 145 that the DSS and the Septuagint preserved, thus the so-called masters of vowel memorization not only forgot vowels but also consonants.
7.) Psalm 40:6(7): a messianic proof text for the Incarnation:
The MT (and KJV/NABRE/NASB/NIV/RSV/RSVCE): Thou hast dug out my ears.
The Septuagint: A body thou hast prepared me.
8.) Concerning another messianic psalm, Psalm 22:16, the DSS agrees with the Septuagint against the MT.
9.) Baruch, Sirach, Tobit, and Psalm 151 are written in Hebrew in the DSS.
10.) ▪︎The chronology of Genesis 11 and the year of the flood of the Paleo Hebrew and the Septuagint line up against the MT. Shem is not Melchizedek:
▪︎Literary sources before 100 AD that agree with the LXX: 2 Esdras, Josephus and Philo (30/70 AD) did not use the Septuagint but used Square Hebrew texts to come to their conclusion that lines up with the Septuagint.
▪︎Eupolemus, the Jewish 2nd century BC historian's chronology, comes close to aligning with the Paleo Hebrew and Septuagint and against the MT.
▪︎Jewish Demetrius the Chronicler's (3rd century BC) chronology comes very close to the Paleo Hebrew and Septuagint and against the MT.
*Justin Martyr said the scriptures were being altered in his time period. See Jeremiah 8:8.
▪︎https://biblearchaeology.org/research/biblical-chronologies/4349-mt-sp-or-lxx-deciphering-a-chronological-and-textual-conundrum-in-genesis-5
Since synagogues around the Mediterranean used the Septuagint and Square Hebrew, even in Palestine, Greek was the lingua franca, Jesus grew up near Sepphoris where Hebrew and Greek were both spoken and where Joseph could ply his trade, Christ quoted the scriptures, spoke to the Syrophoenician woman, and Mark/Luke were written to Romans/Greeks, some will be hard-pressed to prove Jesus used only Hebrew.
Outside Judea, close to 100% of the diaspora synagogue inscriptions are in Greek. In Judea, where the default language is Aramaic, 80% of synagogue inscriptions are in Greek.
Some have said the Deuterocanon was never written in Hebrew but the DSS (Dead Sea Scrolls) proved that to be false as at least 3 so far (Baruch, Sirach, and Tobit of the Deuterocanon), have been found within the DSS written in Hebrew, and using the word "recension" against them is a continual knee-jerk reaction to the Deuterocanon being written in Hebrew and thus a moving of the goal posts.
Concerning key messianic scriptures, Catholics, Copts, Orthodox, and Protestants see that the leaven of the rabbis and then later the Masoretes seemed to target scriptures that point to Jesus Christ. (Matthew 16:6).
The Paleo Hebrew, Square Hebrew, and the Septuagint all agree with each other against the MT far more than they disagree, thus the starting point is to sideline the MT in favor of the totality of the Septuagint, Paleo Hebrew, Samaritan Pentateuch, Aramaic Targums, Peshitta, Codex Vaticanus, Sinaiticus and others which provide substantially older Old Testaments.
There are dozens and dozens of instances where the Paleo Hebrew, Square Hebrew, and the Septuagint agree against the MT: By the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses let every word be established. Deut. 19:15; 2 Cor. 13:1.
Given that Septuagint scrolls were found with Paleo Hebrew and Square Hebrew scrolls in the DSS, one would again be hard-pressed to prove that Christians composed the Septuagint and, as well, the Torah was translated into Greek from 283-246 BC under Ptolemy II Philadelphus and the prophets and writings within the next 100 years.
Septuagint Chronicles is quoted by Eupolemos in the middle of the 2nd century BC, and Septuagint Job by Pseudo-Aristeas in the beginning of the 1st century BC thus Christians and certainly not Origen created it. Furthermore...
The translation of Isaiah contains allusions to historical situations and events that point to the years 170-150 BCE" (Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible, Emanuel Tov, p 131, 2012).
Septuagint fragments found at Qumran (Lev.), the Nahal Hever (Habbakuk, near Ein Gedi), dated 50 BC, Deut. fragments dates 2nd century BC.
Proseuche (forerunner to the synagogue) foundation stones in Egypt are dated 120 to 240 BC. If you gather in a church or synagogue, its origins are found in Hellenistic Egypt as they are foreign to temple-only thought. The synagogue ultimately spread to Israel along with the Septuagint (Theodotus inscription, in Greek, a synagogue in Jerusalem, 1st century AD).
Archaeological surveys "...of Palestinian synagogue inscriptions revealed that 67 were in Greek, 54 were in Aramaic and 14 in Hebrew. Most of the Greek inscriptions were found in the coastal and important inland cities." (Caesarea under Roman rule, Lee Levine).
Concerning archeological findings: the Delos synagogue dates to 250 BC and the Magdala synagogue: dates to 50 BC.
There was almost exclusive use of Greek in all synagogue inscriptions everywhere in the world.
HMMMmmm..
I'll have to conjure up a Crocodile Dundee type of, "That's not a knife...", dig - just to make him you proud to be right.
Really?
I've learned so much from my copy of the Septuagint. So; you read Greek; eh?
So many times Catholics cry about context; then they don't use it when they should.
What your poor, tortured soul sees as a 'dig', others might see as an admiring
statement of an individuals higher learning; for most of us with any knowledge at all
KNOWS the Septuagint is a GREEK translation of the OT.
And; since this whole thread is about TRANSLATIONS and the quality of them,
any person able to read the SOURCE language would be highly valued.
Oh well; iffn ya can't understand the Vulgate; one must rely upon a less accurate
English version.
Don't worry Elsie.
Some folks say my cackle ain't funny either.
You’d probably diss someone too; if they were poking your cart drawing animal with a sharp stick!
A question that comes to my mind is what is the first born son of Mary? Do you believe this son of Mary was God in His deity, humanity, or both? Is He not the eternal God?
Incarnation...duh....something I put “In” my “Carnation” instant breakfast drink?
Incarnation....a nation that drives around “incars”?
Though I read that Arias and some early church folks had issues grappling with the issue...
I just take it literally...God in flesh....and I’ll trust to let God in three persons handle the details of how it all works. Jesus said before Abraham was, I am..(makes a nice rhyme in the English translations...the fact of which, at least a fact I personally believe, was no coincidence of occurrence!
To co-op a line from a Neil Diamond song...” Before Abraham...”(dada daah dadaah...) “I AM Christ cried...”(dada daah dadaah!)
Yup...the translations into English do say..”firstborn” not “only son”...don’t they?Hmmmmm...
Nah Elsie - everyone see’s your posts as fluff. If you want to be taken seriously, then read the article and respond to it with sense - you could have asked chuckles politely if he could read Greek and whether it was Koine greek
Oops! firstborn, not first born.
In John 14 we hear Jesus tell the disciples soon to be Apostles that ‘from now on you have seen the Father.’ The only place these men could see God The Father was where He was in their limits well ... as Jesus. And since we are told that The Father is Spirit and must be worshipped in spirit, we can deduce that God With Us is The Almighty God IN the human spirit of Jesus empowering His works. Had Jesus NOT had a human spirit He could not be tempted as we are. BUT GOD had His Spirit Life in the human spirit of Jesus.
Better get your seeing-eye dog some new glasses.
And just WHY would I do that?
He posted:
Why was Maccabees removed from the KJV and left out of later translations? It seems it was in the KJV as late as the 1800's then dropped. I've gotten 50 different answers but most make no sense. Everything from saving paper and ink to the British wanting to hide it from the unruly colonists talking revolution. What say you?
NOW the question becomes, "Was there an ultior motive?"
Ok, I'll take you to the veterinary ophthalmologist. be a good boy
Is this a dig?
They were anti-chrst Zionists! Is that when they started fluoridating the water and "creating money out of nothing?"
A Bible without the Apocrypha is like buying a book with an important section missing from it! Why would anyone in their right mind do that? The Apocryphal books are invaluable in my opinion and add important details to events in our Bibles.
You're a higher critic who doesn't even believe what happened in Genesis. Why do you need more books to not believe in?
Stop your antisemitism.
Zionists are not, as you call them, antichrist.
Jesus was the Son of God. A better question is if Christ is the Son of God, does this make Mary the Mother of God in that same sense?
Jesus was and is the Son of God not in the same sense that an earthly man is the father ie progenitor of a son.
Jesus is the Word of God, not a creation, but part of God in the same way your voice is part of you yet not you. Jesus is the Word of God, the means by which the ineffable father interacts with the material world.
Mary is the mother, the womb bearer of the Son, her creator, her God.
My mother didn’t create me, God did. The same for you.
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