Posted on 12/29/2020 11:05:12 AM PST by OneVike
Wrong! Women are NOT to teach men. Women are not to be pastors of a church. Outside of Church they can teach whomever they so chose. But what you are using for evidence has no Scriptural evidence to back it up.
It is teachings like that which has led to the weakening of many denominations who would rather follow the Worlds lead rather than Christs.
1 Timothy 2:12-14, “But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being quite deceived, fell into transgression.
1 Timothy 3:15, “but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.
At the very least, there is an authority structure set up by God. The woman is not to have authority over the man (1 Timothy 2:12) in the church context, “the household of God,” (1 Timothy 3:15). This verse is not about political, social, or economic aspects of the secular realm. It is not about a “patriarchal society” at the time of Paul. This is the instruction to the household of God and anchors its teaching on the doctrinal truth that Adam was created first.
The Greek for “husband of one wife” is found in these verses
1 Timothy 3:2, “andra mias gunaikos”; andra = man/husband; mias = of one; gynaikos = woman/wife
1 Timothy 3:12, “andres mias gynaikos”; andres = men/husbands; mias = of one; gynaikos = woman/wife
Titus 1:6, “aner mias gunaikos”; aner = man/husband; mias = of one; gynaikos = woman/wife
In other words, each is saying a “man of one woman,” or a “one-woman man.” Notice that the biblical instruction is that the elders, bishops, overseers must be men. ‘Andra,’ ‘andres’, and ‘aner’ all are cognates of the same word in Greek meaning man, husband. In each case, the one who is an elder, deacon, bishop, or overseer is instructed to be male. He is the husband of one wife (‘aner mias gunaikas,’ ‘man of one woman’), responsible, able to “exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict,” (Titus 1:9). We see no command for the overseers to be women. On the contrary, women are told to be “dignified, not malicious gossips, but temperate, faithful in all things,” (1 Timothy 3:11). Why is it that it is the men who are singled out as the overseers? It is because of the created order of God that Paul references (Gen. 1-2; 1 Timothy 2:12-14). This is not merely a social custom that fell away with ancient Israel.
While Christ fulfilled the Law and the Ceremonial practices, and thus obliterated them from existence, nothing He did obliterated God's view on the order women are to be in when it comes to the matter of the Church.
Try as you may, you cannot find any reference anywhere in scriptures to prove otherwise. NOTHING!
11/10/2020, 1:11:52 PM · 62 of 63 StoneWall Brigade to SkyDancer
I’m done conversing with you Sky.
You’re an evil evil demonic horrid immoral quasi wretched charlatan, if its such great knowledge too forsake the Lord and his bride (The Church) then I want no part of it enjoy your pride bask in your foolishness for the day of judgment will soon be here and it’s you who will answer for standing for evil when you could have and should have stood up for the greater good. Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies
My reply: Thank you for that. I have saved it and will post your "pseudo-Christian?" reply whenever any religious posts are made here just to show your hypocrisy; you could have gone a step further and added "Jewish hag" or something equally demeaning.
No, and you did not see me respond in that way.
I disagree with your understanding of the point we are discussing. However, I do not see any reason to claim you are a heretic.
I would not attend your church, but unless there are critical points we differ on, then we can still converse on Biblical matters.
Some things need to be set aside, for the benefit of the Gospel. Some things we should and would split apart like the Red Sea, but not on this issue.
The way I read those scriptures is Paul was addressing a problem with that church and added about the teaching thing.
The Bible was fractured into chapter and verse in the early 16th. century; what it did was not only fracture the Bible but made each verse a standalone argument that some preachers would tie one with another somewhere then to another to form an argument to prove their point of view.
Just saying.
“You completely took out of context what I referred to.”
A lot of what I was saying was just addressing the subject in general. It was not meant as an accusation against you at all.
I see in various Christian groups a horrible attitude of promoting exactly what I was speaking against: the idea that women must submit to men, that women are subservient to men, and women are beneath men.
God designed men and women differently. Men are supposed to take the lead, be chivalrous, gentle, kind, and protective toward women. As leaders who follow Christ’s example, they should serve women rather than thinking that it is the role of women to serve them. God gifted women with maternal instincts that men cannot fulfill. Women should be cherished and prized.
I’m sure you’ll agree that the roles of men and women are under Satanic attack in our society and in our churches.
“I was not referring to in general as to how a woman should respond to all men.”
It’s a very important distinction, especially considering that people accuse Christians of being anti-women. Such comments MUST be put into context.
But it’s more than this. Your position does not seem to specify the context of the passage you cited as being about order in the church. It is exclusively about that in the context of women not teaching. It is not about women sharing the Bible in their homes, communities, marketplace, online, and so forth.
“As for teaching the Scriptures, women cannot teach men. Period! No woman can be the head pastor. Period! And women should not be teaching older boys in Church.”
If the passage is exclusively about this and not limited to just the church then women would have to ALWAYS be silent. That’s not the case because the passage is about order in the church.
Further, the modern role of “pastor” is not in the Bible. Ephesians 4 mentions the gift to be a pastor (plural) and elders/presbyters/overseers have the responsibility to shepherd the flock (which is what a pastor does). There is no example in the Bible of a local church having a singular “head pastor”. There were apostles/missionaries who worked themselves out of a job by appointing elders (plural, again). Elders are always men who are married with children, and the husband, wife, and their children must meet the qualifications because it is a family ministry. Older women are to be virtue-teachers of the younger women. Men are to take the lead, as is also illustrated by the advocacy for “men” to pray everywhere. So, even outside of the church, men are admonished to take the lead. But remember that leadership as Christ modeled it means being everyone else’s servant, not barking orders or seeking preeminence and prominence. Even apostles never operated alone in the biblical account. The only exception was when Paul became separated from the other apostles and/or ministers he was working with.
The biblical pattern also distinguishes evangelism and home Bible study (and communion which was also practiced “from house to house” on occasion) from when the whole church (congregation of believers in a local area) met together. See “when you come together in one place” in 1 Corinthians 11:20 and “and breaking bread from house to house” in Acts 2:46.
Paul’s admonition in the passage you cited says for a wife to ask her own husband her questions at home. This is to be distinguished from the church order. In other words, the rules for church order are not the same as those for order at home or other places.
Asking questions at home does not imply that a wife cannot teach her own husband or another man in her home. I’m not advocating that Christian women need to set up Bible studies that they lead at home to teach men, although it could be appropriate in the missionary example you gave. My point is that the instruction for the woman (a married woman, i.e. wife) “not to teach or exercise authority over” a man (i.e. her own husband) is exclusively about order in the church.
Anyone who has run meetings knows that there is a big danger in opening the floor to discussion, especially questions. Questions are useful in teaching, but there is a danger in allowing those being taught to ask questions. It is very easy to lose control of order in such a meeting. This is especially true when it comes to teaching and decision-making in a church meeting.
See Acts 15:6 & 12, and 17:18 & 22. These show how leadership (plural) is supposed to meet to discuss and make decisions in the church. Notice that ALL of the elders were present. Notice that there was also a multitude present but later the whole church met and the decision made by the apostles and elders was explained.
Christ used questions as a way to teach in His earthly ministry and He also did so when He spoke with the Jewish religious leaders when He was 12.
I agree with all of this.
because their message is less corrupted than the one taught here in many churches.
What did John the Baptist preach?
What did Jesus preach?
What did the Apostles preach?
WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU HEARD THAT MESSAGE?
“Wrong! Women are NOT to teach men. Women are not to be pastors of a church. Outside of Church they can teach whomever they so chose. But what you are using for evidence has no Scriptural evidence to back it up.”
I think you misunderstood my point. I am making the same distinction as you between in the church and outside of the church.
But some of the examples you gave lead me to believe you are making broader categories of what is church.
Sunday school classes, home Bible studies (unless it is a church that meets in a home and it is a meeting for everyone), evangelistic ministry such as witnessing in public, and many like things are not being addressed by the specific passage you cited.
However, there are general principles about the roles of men and women we can look at. The problem is making hard and fast rules that are overly broad and do not fit the example of the passage.
For example, when is it appropriate for a woman to give her testimony? She can’t exactly do this is she is “silent” as the passage describes. When can a woman pray aloud or “prophecy”? Is it okay for a woman to sing a solo for the church?
I’ll go further. The big problem in the modern church is that pretty much everyone is silent except a few performers who get on a stage and entertain.
Sometimes attempts to fit the biblical examples in scripture into modern church services fails because modern church services are not following the biblical example overall. And if we are going to have para-ministries such as AWANA, CEF, prison ministries, and community outreach activities, it is important not to misapply scriptures such as the one you cited which was about a specific problem with a specific group of churches.
I stated it well, you just wish to drag this out longer than need be.
Women cannot teach men, nor older teen boys.
That is simple and to the point.
Women cannot be an ordained minister, because then she is in line to be the head of a church,
Women can attend studies, and participate in discussions. Women can teach other women, girls of all ages, and young boys.
Yes, women can give testimonials.
Like I said, in church women cannot be elders, they cannot be deacons, they cannot be in any position that would put them in authority over any men.
As I stated to you already, if men abdicate their responsibility and so there is no one to teach the men, because the men are too ignorant to do so, then she can by all means teach until a suitable man is brought in. Thus, the reason so many women teach men in the Missionary fields where no men with Scriptural knowledge exist at times.
Sadly, due to Christian men’s failure to do as they are instructed by the Holy Spirit, women in the missionary field out number men three to one. It does not leave much room for play, thus the reason as I stated why women on Missionaries become teachers over the ignorant men of the villages.
As I stated, this is way off base from my commentary which was all about the history of the Missionary movement as to it’s calling from the Great Commission.
Getting off track on a discussion of Paul’s letter to Tim about the proper role of women in the church was uncalled for, since in the very article I stated all that needed to be stated for the commentary.
“Women cannot teach men, nor older teen boys.”
That’s going beyond the text. It’s not necessarily an unreasonable implementation of Biblical roles of men and women in many instances, but any time we make up such rules there is a huge danger. It would be wise to avoid hard and fast rules in areas to which the Bible does not speak specifically, and leave room for the Holy Spirit to direct.
“That is simple and to the point.”
The Pharisees also liked being “simple and to the point” on what was allowed and not allowed on the Sabbath. But their manmade rules were NOT Spirit-led. So, they would say it was okay to rescue one’s animal from a ditch but not heal a human being. They wanted to forbid Jesus from healing on the Sabbath.
Christian women have the Holy Spirit just as men do. They have spiritual gifts as men do. These may include prophecy, teaching, and exhortation. There are speaking and ministering gifts. See 1 Peter 4:11.
Will you silence women from using their speaking gifts everywhere or only in the congregation as the Bible says? You seem to be extending this “silence” everywhere.
Is the command for “silence” for ALL church activity? Or is Paul addressing something more specific? Aren’t women supposed to pray, prophesy, exhort, admonish, teach?
True, women are not gifted to be elders/pastors but they are gifted to be the wives of such men and to raise children who also serve God in their roles.
“Women cannot be an ordained minister, because then she is in line to be the head of a church”
Jesus is the ONLY Head of the church. Husbands are the “head” of their families, which headship is demonstrated in 1 Corinthians 11 by men NOT wearing hats and women wearing them (or being “veiled”).
But women certainly can and are “ordained” to full-time ministry. Widows supported by the church as in 1 Timothy 5 follow this pattern. Some women labored side by side with Paul, for which he commends them in Philippians 4:3. He also commends Priscilla and Aquila, the husband/wife team, in Romans 16:3 as “my fellow workers”. They BOTH “explained to him [i.e. Apollos] the way of God more accurately” in Acts 18.
This CERTAINLY does not follow your simplistic rule about women never teaching men or older boys.
And in Titus 2:3-4 Paul enjoins older women to be virtue-teachers. Women have the gift of prophecy just as men according to Joel 2:28. Phoebe was a full-time minister of the church according to Romans 16:1. Women share the Gospel: Psalm 68:11 (a “great host” of women do so). Women were the first eye-witnesses of the resurrection of Christ and the first to testify... to the men. Would you forbid what God ordained for them to do? In Acts 21:9 Philip had 4 daughters who prophesied. Men AND women pray and prophecy in 1 Corinthians 11.
“Like I said, in church women cannot be elders, they cannot be deacons, they cannot be in any position that would put them in authority over any men.”
And they must never heal someone on the Sabbath. There are many situations to which the Bible does not speak on this matter. Today we have “pastors” with secretaries. They make phone calls. They send out emails and text messages. They might have the responsibility to call a plumber to fix the plumbing.
Your simplistic, manmade rule does not conform to the biblical example. Just look at Proverbs 31. It is both a prophecy and teaching of Solomon’s mother. It contains a description of the virtuous woman who, in verse 26, “opens her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness”.
Young men, including teenagers and those in their early twenties, would be very wise to listen to the testimonies and life lessons of elderly widow women who have served God. Women like Corrie Ten Boom wrote books that are suitable for men and women to read and learn from.
Fanny Crosby wrote thousands of hymns and gospel songs. Guess how the scripture categorizes such gifts? It’s a type of teaching according to Colossians 3:16.
“As I stated, this is way off base from my commentary which was all about the history of the Missionary movement as to it’s calling from the Great Commission.”
Failing to recognize the giftedness of half of the body of Christ and that perhaps half of their primary spiritual gifts are speaking gifts could be a big hindrance to effective ministry. Perhaps you should take this occasion to expand your knowledge on the subject.
I appreciate the articles you write, including this one. But none of us have a monopoly on knowledge of the Bible. We are all still learners. There is something very problematic about the modern church as to the roles of women. This includes the liberal churches who want to ordain them as “pastors” etc. But it also includes many others who stifle their giftedness and contributions to the body of Christ by cutting off a great deal of what they offer by misapplying passages such as the one you cited when this conversation veered this direction.
Your understanding of the Scriptures is woefully lacking. The reason all these churches and denominations, which allow women in positions of authority over men in the church, is dwindling is because they have given into the what the World demands.
God is the same today, yesterday and forever. He never changes, we do. As I stated, Christ ended the Mosaic Law, and the Ceremonial festivities along with their meanings, because He fulfilled them. He is what they pointed to. Nothing in any of those ever ended the role of men or women when it comes to what God set in place.
I gave you the scriptures, and you even stated in comment (28) of this thread, [Your words not mine] “I agree with all of this.”
I am finished debating this dead dog.
Have a blessed day.
“Your understanding of the Scriptures is woefully lacking. The reason all these churches and denominations, which allow women in positions of authority over men in the church, is dwindling is because they have given into the what the World demands”
Nothing I said supports the modern church allowing women to lead or teach in church meetings or to govern the church. You have failed to listen.
“I gave you the scriptures, and you even stated in comment (28) of this thread, [Your words not mine] ‘I agree with all of this.’”
Yes, because you were specifically discussing the role of women in church. What I disagree with is the broad generalization:
“Women cannot teach men, nor older teen boys. That is simple and to the point.”
Yes it is simple, and simply wrong. I showed you numerous examples from scripture that contradict your position. When Priscilla and Aquila explained to Apollos “the way of God more accurately” in Acts 18, they were not following your simple rule. Why did it not apply? They weren’t doing this in church.
If you said women are not to teach in the church (i.e. when the whole congregation gathers) you would have biblical support. The idea of specifying categories of people a Christian woman should never teach (men and teenage boys) shows that you are extending the instructions for church into realms that are not church and intruding into areas outside of church governance.
Most believers do not exercise their spiritual gifts in the church (gathering of the whole congregation), but rather in their day-to-day lives, whether interacting with believers or unbelievers.
No one has the authority to forbid women from using their speaking gifts at the appropriate time and place. God is the one who gave them these gifts. And there are many examples of God using women this way, outside of the church meeting, in the Bible.
Again, you continue to think I speak of teaching men in general. Allow me to say it one more time
In the Church, women are not to be above men, and not to teach them.
Outside the church, women can teach and rule over men all they so desire.
If a woman wants to teach men history, Gymnastics, Trigonometry, Architectural design, Electrical Engineering have at it. Paul, and neither God has anything to say on that.
If we wish to elect a female to an office where she will have power to rule over us, FINE!
I speak of the way God set up the hierarchy of HIS CHURCH!
Outside of the structure of Christ’s church, do as you so choose, because you nor them will be in violation of God’s precepts, unless it is a known sin.
I also said women have every right to engage in discussions with men in a Bible class setting. As long as she does so as a student, not as the instructor of said Bible study.
If women wish to teach, then they can do so as a the head of the Ladies ministries. I know many great Biblical instructors who are women. And they are more knowledgeable than some male teachers I know of.
However, regardless of how blessed they are by God, they are prohibited to teach a man as an instructor. If she wishes to share her beliefs, she can do so as in a general way in normal conversation with men. No problem.
Now, why I have to continue repeating this is beyond me. Unless it has to do with your inability to practice good reading comprehension. I have not changed my stance from the first time this came up, and I never will.
And, I will not respond to your errant accusatory comments on this subject ever again. You seem to want to keep grabbing hold of things I wrote with an attempt to make an issue out something I never said nor insinuated. This is beyond me why you wish to make an issue here.
I have written extensively on many things in my years here at FR. I am a charter member of FR since Feb, 1998, and I challenge you to to find anything where I ever said what you are claiming I did.
I never did, I especially never did in this thread.
I don’t think I’ve distorted what you posted.
But I do look forward to reading your planned article. I usually find your articles very informative and well-supported. So, I expect to learn something from it.
Even when we disagree on a biblical matter, the exercise of studying and arguing a position can be mutually beneficial in my opinion.
It would be much more satisfying to come to a mutual understanding, but that may not always be possible even among believers I’m afraid.
Have a blessed day as well.
John chapter 3 is like that...split up into sections that should be memorised as one section especially verses 14 -20. Just citing verse 16 “For God so loved the world” without reference to the surrounding verses causes the verse to lose it’s poignancy. The verse has maximum effectiveness when the other verses are cited with it.
Plus the tying word, connecting word “for” which ties verse 16 to 17 making it a complete phrase.
Basically I’m done with it all; I did not distort what you said.
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