The Gap Between Church and Synagogue...Noahide error

https://billrandles.wordpress.com/2020/10/15/the-gap-between-church-and-synagogue-noahide/ ^ | 10-15-20 | Bill Randles

[pastorbillrandles]

I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers,[a] my kinsmen according to the flesh. 4 They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. 5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.(Romans 9:1-5)

I have been listening to a lot of Rabbis lately, because I have been moved to find out why it is that a good many Christians have been swayed by these Rabbis to the point where they have converted to Judaism, and in the process, they have denied Jesus. This is a subject of eternal consequences.

This movement is called “Torahism” , according to Christian author, RL Solberg. Many churches and Christians are “Going Torah” to various degrees, and accepting the Pharisaic interpretation of Torah, as well as the Pharisaic critique of Christianity.

When I use the word “Pharisee” I am not being derogatory. In an earlier article I mentioned that to an orthodox Jew, Phariseeism has a good name. The celebrated Rabbi, Tovia Singer openly acknowledges that he is of the “Perushim”, ie Hebrew for’ the Pharisees’. They consider themselves faithful to the Torah and indeed the entire Tanakh, and as in the days of Jesus, and the early church, they are fierce opponents of the gospel.

So many Christians I have met over the years are naive about the differences between Judaism and Christianity. They do not realize the extent of the gap, while at the same time, they are enamored of much about the Jewish people, simply because of their love for Jesus, the Jewish Messiah.

I have seen a spectrum that ranges from simply realizing and appreciating that ours is a Jewish faith, and that Jesus was a practicing Jew, (all of which is very healthy and enriching), to the other extreme of Christians sitting under Rabbis, taking on the trappings (Skullcaps, prayer shawls, Shofar blowing, keeping feasts, Sabbaths )and eventually what we are seeing today in the Noahide movement, which is apostasy away from Christ.

Because of my faith in Jesus, I love Jews. I appreciate them, and what they have given us, and the whole world. I agree with my Savior’s evaluation when he told the woman at the well, ‘Salvation is of the Jews”. My heart aches for them, for the “time of Jacob’s trouble” which is coming as well as for the two thousand year exile which they have suffered.

However I am under no illusions as to the tremendous gap in theology which exists between the Jews and their understanding of the Bible, and our Christian revelation. Like many I used to think it trivial, “They are still waiting for the Messiah, But we know He has come” , that was all it amounted to as far as I knew, and one day they will be able to see “Him whom they pierced”.

Here is a brief treatment of three tremendous chasms which exist between Judaism as it stands today and Christianity-

Judaism emphatically denies the need for an atoning sacrifice- especially a blood sacrifice. I have heard Rabbis such as Michaell Skobac of Jews for Judaism, and Tovia Singer among others, emphatically deny the need for any sacrifice whatsoever. They cite scriptures such as Micah 6:8 And Psalm 40; He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?… Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required. The Rabbis even cite the 14th chapter of Hosea, which gives a word for word prayer of repentance,

O israel, return unto the Lord thy God; for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity.Take with you words, and turn to the Lord: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips.

By these verses and others the Rabbis vigorously assert that God requires “Teshuvah”, repentance, a heart for Him, and not sacrifice.

Christians on the other hand, read the same Old Testament that Jews read, and see the requirement of blood, from the very beginning, in the garden of Eden, through the bloody sacrifice of Abel, the sacrifices offered by the Patriarchs, and the blood on the door of the Passover, and to the rivers of blood which flowed from the Temple of the LORD. All of this was appointed by God.

We would say, All of this points to the once and for all final offering, of the body of Jesus Christ for the sins of the World.

Jews would say that human sacrifice is forbidden in the Torah and is considered an abomination.

This is a major difference between Judaism and Christianity. The blood of sacrifice is an offense to the Jews, and they do not see it as a requirement in their Torah. It is particularly offensive to Jews when Christians speak of the ‘blood of Jesus’.

I have been transformed by the news that Jesus died for me, but ‘torahists” stumble over it.

The Nature of the Messiah- Jews and Christians both believe in a Messiah, an “anointed” King to come, and who will set the world right and restore the Kingdom to Israel. In that there is agreement, but the gap is so great in what they believe about the nature of Messiah, and the “Messianic age” it is truly amazing.

The Rabbis all refer to Messianic passages such as Isaiah 11, Isaiah 2, and show that the point is not any given person, but the characteristics of the Age. Michael Skobac in teaching on this subject acknowledges that yes there will come a man who will be a direct descendant of King David, and who will rule on a throne in Righteousness, establishing Peace on Earth. But Skobac says that in Biblical descriptions of the Messianic age, little is given to emphasis on Messiah, the person, but the Age itself.

Tovia Singer points to similar passages and exclaims, (for example Isaiah 11) that there is nothing in there about Messiah dying for our sins! Furthermore he is emphatic that the Messiah could not be Divine, because Isaiah 11 says He will have the “spirit of the fear of the LORD”, and ‘How could God fear himself?’.

We who are Christians believe in the dawning of the same age, (We call it the Millenium, they call it “the Messianic age), but all emphasis with us is on the Man who is the Messiah. Jesus is everything! By his sacrifice he made us worthy to partake in the glory of the age to come, and we just cannot get over that!

But the Jews say that since the Messianic age obviously did not commence at the coming of Jesus, Jesus couldn’t be the Messiah. One Jews for Judaism tract even says that the words “The Messiah” , as one supreme person, and the focus of faith, never occurs in the Hebrew Bible,

The Hebrew word “HaMashiach” (lit. the Messiah) describing a future anointed person to come does not appear anywhere in the Bible. Since the Bible makes no explicit reference to the Messiah, it is unlikely that it could be considered the most important concept in the Bible. Indeed, in Jewish thought, the Messianic idea is not the most crucial. However, in Christian thought, the Messiah is paramount- a difficulty in light of its conspicuous absence from scripture.

I disagree with the Jewish view, but it has been helpful looking at everything from a completely different perspective.

The Oneness of God, (Monotheism)– Perhaps this is the greatest division between Jews and Christians. The Jewish witness against polytheism, is remarkable in History and can only be attributable to a Revelation from God. The entire world was involved in idolatry, but on Sinai, God did reveal himself to his people as One God.

Christians also believe in only one God, but a God who has revealed himself in three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I am a monotheist. All of the ‘gods of the nations are nothings, they are idols” there is only one God. The Torah is right, as it is the Word of God.

“This is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent…” (John 17:3)

Christians have a hard time describing the person of God. For example how could Jesus be God and yet pray to God? But shouldn’t it be difficult to describe the infinite personal God?

The Jews have some problems too, in the Torah and Prophets; for example how could God tell Moses,

Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him. But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.( Exodus 23:20-21)

Why did Hashem say that the Angel would not pardon their sins? Isn’t the forgiveness of sins the perogative of God alone?

There is more to say on this subject but I hope this is a start. There are people who once knew Christ who have come under the teachings of the Rabbis and consequently are defecting from Jesus. Souls are in the balance, spirituality is not just a matter of “fads” which one can go thru and replace at will without consequence…

[boatbums]

We keep track. We count. (C’mon...Jews!) We know who are the actual living sons-after-son of King David. We are the REAL ones we’ve been waiting for— to ironically borrow from liberals again.

Did first century (CE/AD) Jews not count or keep track? The lineage of Jesus is spelled out via His mother as well as his legal father in the gospels of Matthew 1 and Luke 3 and they both show He is of King David's line.

[boatbums]

How do you explain away the resurrection of Jesus?

[boatbums]

Of whom was the prophet Zechariah speaking when he foretold:

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. (Zechariah 12:10)

[Phinneous]

Are you implying Mary’s (most likely Miriam, right, like Moses’ own sister’s name) Mary’s husband impregnated her? That’s how patrilineal descent works for Jews.

So I disagree. (And place no credence in the NT anyway, but you knew that.)

[sasportas]

The 70 week prophecy of Daniel has the Messiah being “cut off,” meaning killed, BEFORE the fall of Jerusalem IN 70 AD...when both the city and the sanctuary (the temple) were destroyed.

Yet most of these posters on this thread, many of them Noahides, must have a different Messiah than Jesus - who was “cut off” (crucified) before the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD!

The true Messiah WAS killed (crucified) before the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD. AND according to the New Testament resurrected the third day, to ascend to heaven where he is at the right hand awaiting all his enemies to be put under his feet.

Which means, since these posters on this thread do NOT believe it was Jesus who fulfilled “the Messiah” in Dan. 9:25,26, the Messiah they ARE looking for will be the false one, the antichrist.

“Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto THE MESSIAH the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks...And after threescore and two weeks shall MESSIAH BE CUT OFF, but not for himself, and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.” Dan. 9:25,26.

The apostle Peter preached this at Pentecost:

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

[Phinneous]

Here is a very brief answer. Not 3 mi uses of your time to watch a silly Jew. If you’re serious.... There is nothing to “get around” ma’am.

https://youtu.be/ZqII2kFP2fg

[Phinneous]

I think there’s wonderful interaction taking place here. When the Jews and Noahides pipe up it’s much more traffic than the Pastor usually gets. BZ!

You can’t prove a thing with the NT in this arena though. Show us your OT proofs and we’ll show you the mistranslation, out-of-context quote, or blatant lie behind it.

[Songcraft]

Noahide bump.

[sasportas]

You won’t believe unless it is something from the Torah?

“And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel,” Gen. 3:15.

Women don’t have “seed,” you know. You refuse to believe it, but this prophecy from the Torah prophesies THE SON OF GOD...who was both the woman’s (Mary) and GOD’S seed.

Moreover, in supernatural conflict with the serpent and his seed this “seed of the woman” was “bruised” at the cross, not a death blow for he was resurrected three days later, he arose victoriously from the enmity with but a bruise.

And is at the right hand of God awaiting his foes to be put under HIS feet. He will bcrush the head of the serpent, and all those who reject him for the false Messiah (the seed of the serpent), at his second coming.

[sasportas]

Typo

He will crush the head of the serpent, and all those who reject him for the false Messiah (the seed of the serpent), at his second coming.

[wardaddy]

Amen

Ask non believers to name another deity who so loved his creations as to come and live as they do and die worse than 99.9% of them ever will to prove his love and that he can do it too

All the while at any moment he could have ended his suffering ....

To prove he cares about us ...his creation to light a pathway which by mere acceptance in our hearts we can enjoy eternity in his presence devoid of pain emotional or physical and instead joys as we’ve never known

Most other religions offer tangible rewards or even rewards of the flesh...some eastern philosophies offer simply evolution

How that is not obvious to anyone just as a logical observance beats me

Christianity is not explained away by bible verses. Our biblical history is told that way but Gods reach into our souls and psyche is far more than that

Naysayers ...especially those who reject the Christianity they were born to more often than not is a reflection of personal issues and projection borne of problems with the denomination or clergy more than the overall general faith

Thanks for your work.

[Cronos]

Phinneous You think you’ll make a few renovations and lump your clay right on top of it. - you mean like the Talmud?

Let's be precise here. You are ethnically Jewish and religiously Pharisee-derived-Jewish.

Let's stick to the religious aspect -- the other 2nd temple sect of Judaism was/is Jesus-movement Judaism or Christianity. This dates to at least 33 AD

Pharisee-derived-Judaism dates to 70 AD and the recreations under Rabbi Ben Zakkai. So "we Jews" includes Christians in the religious sense.

Pharisee Judaism as read in the Talmud negates the omnipotence of God, binding Him. That's why the Sadducees rejected what your spiritual ancestors preached. That's also why the Samaritans - a first temple Israelite religion, reject what the Pharisee-Jews teach.

So before accusing others of "adding on the perfect vessel", I'd suggest taking a look at the numerous additions as read in the Talmud

[Cronos]

aMPU, it is not 20th century. It’s been there since the time of Christ.

Many Christians of today forget that

1. “Christianity” is a 2nd temple Jewish sect dating to 30 AD or 33 AD
2. “Judaism” as we know it today is derived from ANOTHER 2nd temple Jewish sect - the Pharisees.
2.1. The pharisees are those who emphasised the Oral Torah which Jesus railed against.
2.2. The pharisee invented the synagogue Judaism in AD 70 after the destruction of the 2nd temple (as foreseen in the Olivet discourse) to create a new sect that didn’t depend on temple sacrifices.
2.3. this means that what we call “Judaism” is more precisely Pharisee-Judaism and is a few decades YOUNGER than Christianity (Jesus-movement Judaism)

Too many evangelicals are hooked on the Pharisee-Jewish sect. I mean yes, they are our sister religion and yes, they are closest to Christianity out of all the other religions, but they are ultimately part of the sect (the Pharisees) that not only rejected christ, but in 70 AD in the council of Jamnia edited or created their Hebrew Bible canon to specifically exclude references that showed Jesus is the Messiah — they couldn’t exclude ALL, but they could and did exclude some.

[Cronos]

Judaism in the Torah doesn't have an explicit afterlife -- belief in an afterlife isn’t universal in Judaism, either. There are verses in the Tanakh that seem to hint at something, but they aren’t clear at all.

The more common "Jewish" or rather belief is that a soul goes through Purgatory for up to a year, although the time could be as little as five minutes ( or not at all, in the cases of very righteous individuals). While there, the soil “burns” with shame at the reality of his/her life, seeing all the consequences of every action (or inaction), word, thought, missed opportunity, etc.

The idea of a corporeal god-son taking sin and self sacrificing is, as I understand, totally alien and contrary to God in Judaism. -- not really, the first Christians were all Jews. In fact really until 70 AD Christianity was a Jewish sect

The idea of a corporeal God-son is there in the Tanakh (Daniels "like a son of god" for instance) and taking sin - a sacrificial lamb, and self-sacrificing - Samson among others

Don't mix up Pharisee-Judaism with overall 2nd temple Judaism

[Cronos]

Net net, Jesus did chose that ending. The sin against the perfect one requires the perfect sacrifice.

[Cronos]

We keep track. We count. (C’mon...Jews!) We know who are the actual living sons-after-son of King David.

The stereotype of Jews as counting (misers) is well... a stereotype that is more apt for Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews due to their being banned from non-intellectual work. I don't see Misrahi Jews in Yemen or the Bene-Israelis in India having the same stereotype.

In fact taking the Bene-Israelis in Bassein, Maharashtra - they were farmers and spoke Marathi and were not stereotyped as in Christian or Muslim lands

[Cronos]

Correct. The book of Daniels explicitly ends with the destruction of Jerusalem, with the abomination in the temple and then Jerusalem rendered stone from stone.

Jesus warned the High Priests that they would see His “coming to the Father on clouds in glory” - as in the book of Daniel where the Son of Man is coming TO the Throne of the Ancient of Days. And the High Priests had ample time to regret their rejection of their Messiah

[Cronos]

Not 3 mi uses of your time to watch a silly Jew.

if I wanted to watch a silly Jew, I'd watch Adolph Marx - Harpo. Stop this "silly Jew" business -- the people on this forum are Semitophiles if anything. European Jews are great at comedy and good at numbers, but that's due to the circumstances. Bulgarian Jews aren't given those stereotypes and neither are the Bassein or Cochin Jews.

[ckilmer]

I’m an evangelical christian—meaning I have the high view of Christ—meaning he is fully God and fully man. I tell people this view is the crazy heart of Christianity —after all how can the maker of the universe reside in a fleshly weak mortal body—however, this terrible tension is also the reason that the scientific revolution first emerged from the christian world.

I was in a conversation here with some orthodox freepers here a couple months ago after red heifer was discovered in South America. My understanding is that they can’t sacrifice a red heifer until the new temple was built.

For many years, my pastor was a messianic Jew. So this question is topical for me. I told the orthodox that in practical terms the world is coming to an end as the place of human history. That people like Elon Musk says its now too dangerous for earth to be the only place for humans to exist. So there is a big push now for colonization of the moon and Mars.

What’s this have to do with the red heifer movement and the construction of the new temple?

There are symetries.

My wag on when construction will start on the new temple— is about 2060. Why 2060? That was the date the Issac Newton said the apocolypse and the second coming would occur. As well, 2060 fits within roughly the same time frame as Kurizweil’s singularity. wikipedia describes it this way: Kurzweil describes his law of accelerating returns which predicts an exponential increase in technologies like computers, genetics, nanotechnology, robotics and artificial intelligence. Once the Singularity has been reached, Kurzweil says that machine intelligence will be infinitely more powerful than all human intelligence combined. Afterwards he predicts intelligence will radiate outward from the planet until it saturates the universe. The Singularity is also the point at which machines intelligence and humans would merge. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Singularity_Is_Near

This is crazy stuff. I think it safer to say that the singularity is the place where predicable change become unpredictable change. The greatest science fiction writer of the 19th century was able to predict most of the technological develpment through the 1970’s. After that, invention went off his map. Kurizweil’s map only goes about half as long —sometime between the 2040 and 2060 before new technology goes off his map. (To live in the new world is to be off the map of the new and old testaments—when they were written.)

What does this have to do with the red heifer movement and the construction of the temple?

Something other worldly has to happen in order to trigger the construction of the temple.

What other worldly event would would trigger temple construction?

The best calculation I’ve seen for the date of the start of temple construction—is the date when warp drive is invented which enables travel to the distant stars.

Star Trek future history says

On Earth, warp drive was invented in 2063 by noted scientist Zefram Cochrane.

So all symetries being equal—somewhere in this time frame —when warp drive is invented—would be the time when construction would start on the third temple.

[Phinneous]

Cool stuff. Thanks.
I can’t give it full answers now— The Sabbath is coming! (and I have kitchen duty, like preparing my Sabbath cholent - a stew that cooks from Friday afternoon to Saturday afternoon— which we have been eating since the Sadducees times, to figuratively thwart their interpretation of scripture alone (without the Oral Torah...an aside)) BUT in brief, we don’t believe even rabbis who predict a date. It’s all nice-to-know but redemption can happen anytime and the paradox of the Jews is that we want it to happen now! And since it didn’t, we know it will happen NOW! And yet again I have to work harder to perfect myself, my thoughts, speech, and actions, and to help fellow Jew and non-Jew alike to understand what G-d wants us to do.

Full-flesh-G-d? That is, ironically, so tantalizingly close to the kabbalistic and chassidic view of G-d— and so far away. Not a single G-d-man, but when the physical messiah comes, we will all have the sight to see G-d in all of the world’s details. Spirituality behind all physicality.

This is lost even to your (probably) orthodox Jewish friends, assuming they don’t study the mystical side of Torah.

The paradox I spoke of is the Dilithium Crystal of the Jews— the infinite energy core that drives us, even in the face of a billion moslems and even more Christians.

Gotta run.
Phinneous.