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Even if this is true--which I have my doubts on--you've earned this.
Posted on 09/07/2020 7:14:02 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
A few months back, some guy began flirting with my 19-year old daughter via her Instagram account. This is (unfortunately) pretty common, but much to my delight she does a great job with slamming the door in their face.
However, this particular guy was more persistent than usual and wouldn’t back off. His tenacity led my daughter to use her excellent technical sleuthing skills to find out exactly who he was.
Turns out the guy was a married youth pastor.
My daughter found him, his church, his wife, and other details. That presented us with the dilemma of whether we should contact his church and wife and inform them of the guy’s problematic pastime.
The experience also led my daughter to open up to my wife and me about the continuing disappointment she has with other supposed Christians. She and my older daughter have stopped going to church because they found those in the young adult groups to be far less kind, welcoming and authentic than those in their secular college crowds.
We got story after story from her of young Christian guys going on mission trips who end up attempting to molest the girls in their group. Witnessing first-hand episodes of drug use, outlandish lying and deception and similar behaviors from their peers (and their peer’s parents) have both my girls thinking that people in the church cannot be trusted in any way, shape or form.
Not exactly a pick-me-up kind of tale, huh?
But wait – aren't we told that Christians aren’t perfect, just forgiven? That if you ever find the perfect church, you shouldn’t join because you’ll spoil it (said Billy Graham and Charles Spurgeon)?
We say these things in hopes of convincing non-Christians that they shouldn’t let mistakes they’ve made in their life keep them from pursuing Christianity nor expect perfection from Christians when evaluating the faith. After all, the Bible tells us we all have a sin nature that causes us to fall short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23) and that, even after being born again, the same sin nature remains active and causes us to do wrong (Rom. 7).
But what if our critics are more right than we like to admit? What if hypocrisy and a spirit that is anything but Christlike typifies the Church’s behavior these days?
Studies done by David Kinnaman and his Barna group, which you can find summarized in books like unChristian and You Lost Me, show that the best argument against Christianity isn’t the problem of evil or any other apologetics-styled objection. Instead, it’s the lives lived out by professing Christians.
It’s what caused the German philosopher Nietzsche to say, “I might believe in the Redeemer if his followers looked more redeemed” and Gandhi to declare: “I like Christ, but I don’t like the Christians. The Christians are so unlike their Christ.”
We read in Scripture statements like, “Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come” (2 Cor. 5:17) and “Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life” (Rom. 6:4).
If this is true, why is it that the “new things” and “newness of life” in professing Christian’s lives either seem completely absent or appear so seldom?
It’s at this point that many church leaders throw out the ‘church isn’t perfect’ line in hopes of blunting the accusation. Frankly, I’m tired of hearing it.
We’ve gotten to the point where this excuse uses Paul’s admissions of struggling with sin in Romans 7 like some kind of permission slip; it goes beyond admitting that we sin to almost justifying persistent sinful behavior. Plus, it does nothing to address the very real problem of incongruent behavior that exists between Christ and His Church.
I’d like to suggest a couple of possible root causes for what Kinnaman and others observe along with some cures for the issues.
I believe the biggest source of this problem to be the fact that today’s Church is 9-months pregnant with unbelievers. I say this not judgmentally, but rather because I used to be one.
There’s nothing wrong with unbelievers being in Church. But, there’s everything wrong with them staying unbelievers.
So many who sit in the pews think that because they believe in God, they’re saved and safe. So, you believe in God, do you? Big deal.
The Pharisees believed in God and Jesus rhetorically asked them how they would escape the sentence of Hell (Matt. 23:33). James told his readers if that’s all they possessed then they had nothing more than the demons (James 2:19).
When you combine a reluctance from the pulpit to offend audiences about the truth of their sin with nothing more than a general acknowledgement from that crowd that God exists, you have everything needed for a false faith, false assurance, and a life that in no way will live out the teachings of Christ because, simply put, it lacks the power to do so (e.g. Rom. 8:7).
Instead of services that resemble a comfy group Youtube session, the Church needs straightforward teaching that speaks the truth in love about sin in a way that makes an unbeliever’s conscience and soul uncomfortable to the point where they seek help. Only then will the unbeliever in the pew become a true Christian and start exhibiting the fruit and changed life that confirms a true conversion has taken place (James 2).
Lately I’ve noticed a very bad trend in my own life. When frustrated or angered, in the heat of the moment, I’ve started to let foul language fly.
This hasn’t been something with which I’ve ever really wrestled, and it’s bothered me greatly because Jesus said: “the mouth speaks that which fills the heart” (Luke 6:45). After some contemplation, I think I know what’s going on.
My wife and I have been consistently streaming various drama series that, while containing good story lines and acting, are overloaded with bad language. I’m convinced my new problem with expletives is related to that which I’ve been constantly letting in my ear-gate.
The battle with our fallen nature is real. Paul confirms this when he says, “For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please” (Gal. 5:17). Ingesting a constant, bad diet through the eyes, ears, wrong relationships and actions will result in ungodly habits forming, just like the old Church proverb says:
Two natures beat within my breast
The one is foul, the one is blessed
The one I love, the one I hate.
The one I feed will dominate.
This is why we’re told: “sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it” (Gen. 4:7). Disregarding this truth and immersing oneself in the world is a recipe for disaster where Christlikeness is concerned.
Look how fast it happened to me.
The letters of Paul are full of admissions about the struggles with sin and our spiritual war. But let’s not forget that the same Paul who wrote those things also wrote:
Paul didn’t let the reality of Romans 7 keep him from pursuing the goal that is in front of you and me each morning: Christlikeness. In fact, Paul was so confident of his behavior that he exhorted others to mimic him.
Would you feel comfortable right now doing the same?
No, the Church isn’t perfect, but if we’re not careful, we’ll use that reality as a green-light to sluff off sin and before you know it, you’re a married youth pastor who makes sexual advances over the Internet to 19-year old girls.
And that’s one tragic place to be.
Robin Schumacher is an accomplished software executive and Christian apologist who has written many articles, authored and contributed to several Christian books, appeared on nationally syndicated radio programs, and presented at apologetic events. He holds a BS in Business, Master's in Christian apologetics and a Ph.D. in New Testament. His latest book is, A Confident Faith: Winning people to Christ with the apologetics of the Apostle Paul.
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Even if this is true--which I have my doubts on--you've earned this.
Am I to assume by your lack of response to my other two posts that I have you over a barrel and you concede all my other points?
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I’m like Sam Houston at the Alamo getting swarmed. You’re only one of several people I’ve tried to respond to between work and other things.
If you’ll pardon me, what were the other two points/posts?
Even if this is true—which I have my doubts on—you’ve earned this.
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Ok, but if the Holy Spirit guides the Christian community under the leadership of spirit-filled elders, then one has to ask why so many sincere people were allowed to be lead astray. Your assertion is not without consequences.
Were the people Jesus was teaching and preaching to under the Law??? The answer is yes, of course...They were devout law abiding Jews...
At what point were they no longer under the law???
When did the events in James take place and when was it written???
Like Paul’s epistles was the book of James written to the church???
Who was James written to???
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There is much disagreement about James. It should be no surprise that a book that seems to contradict the Letters of Paul to such a stark degree should have opponents even within the Church tradition. I’m just going to throw out a few points where there is a lot of agreement (even if it is not majority agreement).
James is an old Epistle some argue that it may have been written as early as 50 AD. That could put it even earlier than the first Letters of Paul. I have my doubts about that, but it could be true.
James like Matthew is wary of the Antinomian tendencies of Pauline preaching. By Antinomian, I just mean the rejection or diminished-stature of moral norms/laws that can arise when one asserts Justification by Faith alone.
The book was almost certainly written to Jewish Christians (again like Matthew). But who (or where those Christians were) is not revealed. Since the Epistle is so old, they were probably somewhere in Palestine, but that is not certain.
Yes, by your and other responses protestants are seriously in denial of God’s Truth and rejection of God. Their denial ignores historical facts based on false personal opinion without any factual or reasonable basis.
Even Martin Luther and others have acknowledged that the Bible was authored by Catholics and that the Catholic Church was the Church founded by Jesus and preached the Gospel and baptized all nations for 2000 years. The inspired books of the Old Testament by the time of Christ, the Septuagint, contained the deuterocanonical books. Luther by himself rejected 7 books contradicting Christ’s authority (as stated in the Bible) given to Christ’s Catholic Church to determine the inspired books of the Old and New Testaments. Luther accepted the authorized Catholic Bible (may have changed or added a few words) but rejected 7 books and attempted to delete 4 books in the NT.
Catholics put the Church before the Bible because the Church existed first and wrote and compiled the Bible. The authority of the Bible depends on that of the Church. Then we use the Bible to prove the Church; it is also a historical document. From the Gospels as historical documents we learn that Christ founded a Church, but the authority of the Gospels as inspired writings rests on the word of the Church. Jesus did not write any of the books or command anyone to write the Bible. The Bible was based on Sacred Tradition that was passed down by Jesus and the Apostles and some was written down and passed down to us.
The Scriptures themselves assert that they are incomplete and send us to the Church.
The Catholic Church has dealt with many heresies and schisms over the years and has survived as Christ promised and will continue to survive even if membership declines as prophesied.
The Catholic Church was founded by Jesus to help us for our salvation. As you know, God is love and gave us ‘free will’ to either accept His Truth, His Catholic Church and his love or reject it.
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/catholics-and-the-bible
Your comment/question: “Why would we go to a pretend Church to eat a pretend Jesus when we already have him??? “
Because Jesus told us that it was necessary for our salvation. (John 6:54) Why do you reject His word? Why do you not want His supernatural Body and Blood to dwell within you as He promised?
Your incorrect quote: “But attaining salvation by the free gift of grace with works is also dead...Eph. 2:8,9... “
Yes we are saved by faith through grace and not by works of the law. “:lest any man should boast” 10 “We are created in Christ Jesus for good works” We choose to do good works to show our obedience and our love for God and neighbor.
“So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.” James 2:17
“Truly,truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father.” John 14:12
Your comment: “That’s because the bible rejects any kind of purgatory in spite of the scripture you falsely attempt to attribute to it...After you die if your soul starts feeling some heat, it ain’t purgatory..”
Then I guess all protestants are going where there is some heat? I guess you didn’t read or understand the readings. You realize that you can’t pray for yourself in purgatory, so may you better start now...
Your comment: “By your unbelief you have rejected the mystery of the kingdom of God and are reduced to reading parables such as your Eucharist scenario while the truth is given spiritually to real Christians...
I think you are right in Mark 4: 10-20 that the secret of the kingdom of God was given to the Apostles and the Catholic Church.To those that hear but not understand God’s words, Jesus gave us parables so that they learn from the sower. However where the word is sown on rocky ground with no roots, then Satan immediately comes and takes away the word which is sown in them. Those that were sown upon good soil are the ones who hear the word and accept it and bear fruit.
Your comment: “This is why real Christians won’t waste 5 seconds of their time with a Eucharist.”
Make sure you inform them of John 6:53 “unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;”
You didn’t reply to the false protestant promise:
There is a false protestant promise that all future sins are forgiven.
The Our Father prayer to God states “ And forgive us our trespasses As we forgive those who trespass against you:”
“For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” Matt 6:14-15 Also read Heb 4:16 and Heb 10:26-27
If one rejects God’s Truth, then they reject God and perhaps commit mortal sin that jeopardizes salvation. “How much worse the punishment do you think will be deserved by man who has spurned the Son of god, and profaned the blood of the covenant, by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?”
Isn’t it amazing that Jesus choose a fisherman to become a fisher of men, even though he denied Jesus three times, to build and lead the Catholic Church as the first Pope with the keys to the kingdom of Heaven with the authority to bind and loose on earth and in Heaven.
Jesus recognized his great faith and St Peter died a martyr for that faith.
If we had Peter’s great faith, can you imagine what Christ could do if protestants had Peter’s faith?
Peace be with you.
No James and Matthew are not wary of the Pauline epistles...The mysteries of the church were not even revealed yet when Matthew and James were written...
By Antinomian, I just mean the rejection or diminished-stature of moral norms/laws that can arise when one asserts Justification by Faith alone.
The diminished -stature of moral norms can arise just as well if one asserts justification by Faith + works...Just look at your religion...Most of the clergy are queers...No one believes the scriptures...Divorce is forbidden but annulment is encouraged in it's place...Every Catholic I know drinks to the state of drunkenness which seems to be alright as long as it's done in the presence of a Mary statue...
What you obviously have no clue about is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and his influence upon the spirit of the born again Christian...You people seem to attempt to please Jesus by the works you do...WE attempt to please Jesus because we love him and he loves us...No strings attached...
No the church (Church) did not write and compile the bible...The apostles, Luke, prophets and Patriarchs wrote and compiled the bible...And those people are not the church...
What's your definition of the Church???
Really??? Well there's a bible promise that all future sins ARE forgiven...This next verse refers to me...
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
And this:
1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
I am dead to sins...Apparently you're not...You might want to look into that...
The mysteries of the church were not even revealed yet when Matthew and James were written...
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I’m not following you on this. What do you mean?
The diminished -stature of moral norms can arise just as well if one asserts justification by Faith + works...Just look at your religion...Most of the clergy are queers...No one believes the scriptures...Divorce is forbidden but annulment is encouraged in it’s place...Every Catholic I know drinks to the state of drunkenness which seems to be alright as long as it’s done in the presence of a Mary statue...
What you obviously have no clue about is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and his influence upon the spirit of the born again Christian...You people seem to attempt to please Jesus by the works you do...WE attempt to please Jesus because we love him and he loves us...No strings attached...
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Oh the Catholic Church has more than its fair share of degenerates (especially in high leadership). One can make a good case that the current Pope is an Apostate.
Catholics are notoriously weak on scriptural knowledge too. I shall not attempt to defend them, because it’s hopeless to do so.
I attend a Protestant Church now because there is no way (to my mind) to rectify the current Apostate status of the Magisterium and Pope to what traditional Catholic doctrine has taught about God’s guidance of such a body on doctrinal affairs.
That being said, there are plenty of lowlifes in Protestant churches. I was raised in a Protestant family and within the last 3 years have rejoined a Protestant church. I call myself a “tweener” because I’m in between both sides of the Christian “extremes”.
I know it sounds like I’ve been harsh (even disrespectful) to Protestantism, so allow me to give a compliment (just to show that I’m aware of very noble persons who are Protestant).
When I was at Boston College in grad school back in the early 1990s, there was an argument within the theology department as to whether students should be required to take at least one class that was apologetic to traditional Catholic teaching. This argument had been going on for quite some time, as the Jesuits who ran the school actually chaffed against such teachings, if you can believe that. In fact, the Jesuits had been chaffing against it since the end of WWII (but I digress).
There were only a small handful of professors in the theology department who supported the pastoral approach to this class (instead of it being a purely academic one). Once of these professor was a Protestant professor of New Testament Studies. He was a great instructor. I thought to myself, “It’s sad when Protestants support Catholics actually teaching their own faith to one another more than Catholics do.” It’s also the moment when I began to realize that the Catholic Church’s troubles were much more internal than external. A huge part of the Catholic Church’s problem is that it’s be co-opted by people are just aren’t Catholic at all. Hell, they aren’t even Christians in most cases. But I’m not telling you anything you don’t already know.
None of this affects my respect and love of the Christian apologetic tradition that goes from the Apostles through the Church Fathers, and up to the present day. The Church has struggled against many enemies internal and external over the ages. Some of that struggle has been tragic and some glorious. And whether one agrees with some or none of the Orthodox and/or Catholic tradition, hopefully one can agree that they tried in good faith to transmit the Faith of Jesus Christ as they understood it. Even though they did not ultimately embrace Paul’s theology of Justification, they did not alter his letters or edit them in any way. They kept the texts just as he wrote them nearly 2000 years ago.
Why shouldn’t I just believe that both Matthew and James are heretics?
The Catholic Church was started on Pentecost as described in Acts. The Apostles and writers of the Bible including Paul and Luke were Catholics and inspired by the Holy Spirit.The Bible was complied from Sacred Tradition passed down by Jesus and the Apostles and written by Catholic authors and the Holy Spirit. The books of the Bible were discussed and accepted after much discussion by the Bishops at the Councils of Hippo 393 and Carthage 397.
The Catholic Church is the Body of Christ composed of Baptized members on earth (Church Militant), those in Purgatory (Church Suffering) and those in Heaven (Church Triumphant.
Romans 4:7-8 Paul quotes Ps 32:1-2 of a blessing on a man whom God reckoned as righteous.
1Peter 2:24 “that we might die to sin and live to righteousness”
Neither passage promises forgiveness of future sins.
Perhaps you should study Luke 13:3 “unless you repent you will all likewise perish” an d Luke 17:3 “ if your brothers sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him” and Mat 21:32 “you did not afterward repent and believe him”
Catholics have the Sacrament of Confession to a priest for forgiveness of sins. 1John 1:9; John 20:23
You forgot to mention that it’s the culture of catholicism to believe what you posted. Outside of catholicism there are many believers in Christ who would not believe your post.
So they are not entitled to God’s Truth? Do they truly have faith in God’s revealed Truth or just follow man made personal opinion that may contain some truth, but also contradicts God’s revealed Truth?
Everyone has the choice to accept God’s Truth or follow heresies of man and Satan.
Jesus warned us against false prophets and false teachers. Mark 13:22-23
Jesus established the Catholic Church and the Sacraments to help all know, love and follow Christ on our path to eternal life with God. All should seek God’s Truth and change away from sin. Mark 16:16
And yet Jesus is wondering why His faithful Catholics have allowed abortion 'clinics' to stay in business.
Didn't He give an example with the moneychangers?
It's a good thing that the College of Cardinals were not invented yet; or they would have selected Judas - to hear you Catholics whine about your CURRENT pope!
Not quite...
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