When plague in Italy killed 1.5 million people in a single year ~ Saint Frances of Rome and the Plague of 1656

Gloria Romanorum ^ | March 9, 2020 | Florentius

[aMorePerfectUnion]

That is your incorrect opinion.

Then, simply post chapter and verse that proves the position you are promoting... simple as that.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Lots of verses Cronos, but not a single one advocates praying to a departed saint, nor is there a record from before 100 AD that an Apostle ever did this...

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Revelation 5:8 - angel offers prayers of the holy ones to God. Are the saints dead? No, they are alive in Christ

And even here, no record that anyone on earth prayed to a departed saint...

[aMorePerfectUnion]

daniel, I meant to ping you to this.

[Cronos]

All of them advocate it, as it is clear that Christ won over death and those who pass away are alive in Christ, are part of Christ’s body, the Church. We pray with them and we also ask them to pray for us.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“ We pray with them and we also ask them to pray for us.

And yet no Apostle prayed to a departed saint in Scripture - not even once.

[ebb tide]

And yet no Apostle prayed to a departed saint in Scripture - not even once.

Sure they did:

[1] And after six days Jesus taketh unto him Peter and James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into a high mountain apart: [2] And he was transfigured before them. And his face did shine as the sun: and his garments became white as snow. [3] And behold there appeared to them Moses and Elias talking with him. [4] And Peter answering, said to Jesus: Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles, one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. Matthew 17

[ebb tide]

Prayer to the Saints Is More Biblical Than You Realize

[G Larry]

I’m trying to figure out whether I should do a St. Frances Novena or suggest my wife do one?

[nickcarraway]

You need to read the Bible more. Jesus himself teaches us to pray to the saints as he did at the Transfiguration. (Matthew 17:1–8, Mark 9:2–8, Luke 9:28–36)

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“ You need to read the Bible more. Jesus himself teaches us to pray to the saints as he did at the Transfiguration.

No. Jesus did not pray to departed saints at the transfiguration. Nor did he teach anyone to do so.

You simply made that up.

Perhaps, you should reread that passage.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

It isn’t, nor did you post chapter and verse.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

No. They appeared. They didn’t pray to them.

You are adding this to scripture.

[Antoninus]

Then, simply post chapter and verse that proves the position you are promoting... simple as that.

Already done above. Of course, your interpretation won't accept it. It comes down to this -- I trust the Church Fathers to be better interpreters of Sacred Scripture than some dudes speculating on theology 1,500 years after Jesus's resurrection who were united only by an animus for the Catholic Church.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“ Already done above.”

Not a single verse showed an Apostle, or Christian, practice or teach prayer to anyone but God Himself.

“Of course, your interpretation won’t accept it.

When the actual text doesn’t say something, you can’t “interpret it into the text.

You claim this is true and important, yet it isn’t found in God’s Word.

Because it’s a pagan belief Rome adopted, like so many others.

[Antoninus]

Because it’s a pagan belief Rome adopted, like so many others.

Your claim that "Rome" imposed this belief on the Church is simply false. The Churches of the Greek east also practiced intercessory prayer as well as the veneration of relics.

But again, feel free to stick to your novel interpretation of Scripture based on the ramblings of johnny-come-latelys in the 16th century.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“ Your claim that “Rome” imposed this belief on the Church is simply false. The Churches of the Greek east also practiced intercessory prayer as well as the veneration of relics.”

This is a thread about Romanism, not the orthodox, who were also falsely led astray before they were forced to break with Rome.

Yes, the pagan practice never appeared or was taught before 100 ad - and is never found in God’s Word.

It was found in Greece, before Rome conquered it. Rome added pagan practices to Christianity... and here you are defending it.

[Antoninus]

It was found in Greece, before Rome conquered it.

What was? Asking saints to intercede on behalf of Christians existed in Greece before Rome conquered it? Really? That's news to me -- and all historians, considering Rome conquered Greece in 146 BC.

The Orthodox and the Catholic Churches were one prior to AD 1054. Both practiced intercessory prayer to the saints and veneration of relics and both continue to do so. It is only the new guys who invented new and strange doctrines in the 16th century who don't avail themselves of these practices.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

What was? Asking saints to intercede on behalf of Christians existed in Greece before Rome conquered it? Really? That's news to me -- and all historians, considering Rome conquered Greece in 146 BC.

No, dear Antoninus, praying to a pantheon of lower gods, as Rome does with departed saints for every category.

The Orthodox and the Catholic Churches were one prior to AD 1054. Both practiced intercessory prayer to the saints and veneration of relics and both continue to do so. It is only the new guys who invented new and strange doctrines in the 16th century who don't avail themselves of these practices.

Exactly. It predated the split.

It's America. If you like your paganism, you can keep your paganism.

But it isn't Christian - nor Apostolic.

[Antoninus]

No, dear Antoninus, praying to a pantheon of lower gods, as Rome does with departed saints for every category.

No Christian, now or then, has ever equated the saints with "lower gods". That's another 16th century invention or purposeful misunderstanding of the relationship between God and the saints as taught by the Church Fathers from the beginning.

It's America. If you like your paganism, you can keep your paganism. But it isn't Christian - nor Apostolic.

Guys who follow the teachings of those who had new "truths" revealed to them 1,500 years after the resurrection of Jesus don't get to decide what's Christian or Apostolic. Sorry.