Sorry, the Shroud of Turin Is Definitely a Hoax

http://talesoftimesforgotten.com/2020/02/24/sorry-the-shroud-of-turin-is-definitely-a-hoax ^ | Spencer Alexander McDaniel

[annalex]

[...]

Conclusion

So, here’s the evidence I have presented for why the Shroud of Turin is clearly a hoax:

• The forger who made the Shroud of Turin confessed and the earliest definitive mention of the shroud in any historical source is a record of his confession.
• The Shroud of Turin doesn’t match the kinds of funerary wrappings used in Judaea in the time of Jesus or the description of Jesus’s own funerary wrappings given in the Gospel of John.
• The linen of the Shroud of Turin has been securely dated using radiocarbon dating to between c. 1260 and c. 1390 AD—well over a millennium after Jesus’s death.
• The figure on the Shroud of Turin does not have anatomically correct proportions and much more closely resembles figures in fourteenth-century Gothic art than a real human being.
• The bloodstains on the Shroud of Turin are not consistent with how blood actually flows naturally and they instead appear to have been painted on.
• The fabric of the Shroud of Turin is made with a kind of weave that is known to have been commonly used during the Late Middle Ages, but does not seem to have been used for burial shrouds in Judaea in the first century AD.

All the evidence points to the inexorable conclusion that the Shroud of Turin is a late medieval hoax.

The fact that the Shroud of Turin is a hoax doesn’t make it any less interesting as a historical artifact; it may be a hoax, but it is still an extremely famous hoax that is probably around seven hundred years old and that can reveal a lot about the nature of religious hoaxes in late medieval France. The Shroud of Turin is worth studying, then, not as an authentic ancient relic, but rather as an authentic medieval religious artifact.

[...]

[Swordmaker]

Plus the big give away is the nail prints are through the wrist not palms as depicted in all MA prints/paintings/icons.

One the technical point. The nail exit point is in the wrists. If you follow that toward the front of the hand, through what is termed the “Space of Destot,” a natural channel through the wrist bones, which requires no breaking of those bones, just a natural shifting, but also a natural severing of the nerve and tendon that controls the thumb, you will find that it enters right at the base of the thumb, in the center of the bottom of the palm, at the center, where there’s a natural depression, you can feel it with your opposite hand’s index finger. It’s not the center of the palm, but about an inch or so toward the wrist, but still on the palm and hand.

An experienced, skilled Crucifixionist, an expert, would know exactly where to place that nail at the base of the palm, and it would easily support all of the body’s weight, not matter how much struggling the victim put on it. The nail could easily be driven through that space and into the wood of the cross. One distinctive result would be that the thumb, having its nerve and tendon cut or damaged, would pull into toward the palm and be paralyzed, which is exactly what we see, (or rather do not see), as both thumbs are hidden behind the body of the hands of the Man on the Shroud, cramped inward, instead of being relaxed in death.

[Swordmaker]

Think of all the people who have claimed to know where Jimmy Hoffa is buried. A confession without evidence is meaningless

What? Jimmy Hoffa is buried? I heard he was turned into hotdogs and sold at a Baseball game to the fans. . . best tasting dogs they ever ate, too.

[Swordmaker]

DUH ,, THAT’S WHAT I WAS SAYING!!

I’m not criticizing, Ann, but you did say “X-ray” which I corrected. I explained further for those others on here who are not fully up to speed. I recognized you were pretty much accelerating to the correct finish line, though. Thanks.

I outlined the current state of the science as we now know it for those others. . . without x-rays. ;^)

X-rays may have something to do with the creation of the Shroud, but we don’t know. Dr. Marc Gascin thinks so.

[rx]

If there’s a case to be made along the lines of that proposition, it seems to me it’s logically answered by saying that the quality of “not matching” merely means the face cloth has gone missing, not that the authenticity of the shroud that we have is rightfully brought into question.

Any proponent of that argument, who would attempt to put it forward as if its “not matching the John 20 account” therefore lessens the likelihood that the shroud is authentically Christ’s burial cloth is executing a devious sleight of hand. Are you such a proponent?

[Swordmaker]

But the carbon dating was done on the repairs, not the actual Shroud.

Sort of correct. They didn’t date the repairs, they didn’t date the patch, they didn’t date what was patched. They aren’t certain what they dated. The labs tested both in a varying mixture of original Shroud material and newer patching material from the 16th Century. That mixture varied in an estimated ratio of 40% to 60% old known material with a known provenance, but unknown date, intermixed with 60% to 40% newer unsuspected, unknown material, with an unknown provenance, and unknown date. Because of not following agreed protocols, they really screwed the pooch.

Very unfortunately the mixture of both tested out to a spurious mid-14th Century. . . a date which the project gleefully latched onto because it met their prejudiced expectation biases and validated their preferred chosen outcome: that the Shroud of Turin was a hoax.

That spurious date result was due to there being a far greater ratio of C-14 to C-12 in the 16th Century part than there was in the lower ratio of C-14 to C-12 in the equal weight of carbon in the 1st century part. In other words, although there was an approximately equal weights of 16th and 1st century Carbon in the tested piece, the amount of radioactive C-14 was FAR higher in the 16th century piece because it was younger, while the 1st Century piece’s radioactive C-14 had already decayed into its descendant element of equal weight Nitrogen 14. . . But the beta particles being emitted from the mixture of both, being mixed in the CO and CO₂ resulting from burning in the test, would fake out the tests inaccurately, to pretend to be an age date of neither but somewhere proportionately in between the actual dates of both.

Thus, the test results date of the mixed materials skewed ~300 years older for the newer 16th century material, but skewed ~1300 years younger for the first century material than if they had been tested separately due entirely to the differences in the amount of C-14 in each, which theory says decays at a known rate per second since the living plant/animal stopped inhaling it from the atmosphere.

[Swordmaker]

Thank you very much. Do you mind if I repost this, or would you like to do it yourself? I have a “space” (forum) on Quora that is widely read, and young Spencer Alexander also posts there.

His historical arguments are better quality than this; this one was disappointing.

Go ahead. I don’t mind. Very little of that is original with me.

[Swordmaker]

I believe that’s totally ridiculous. It would be more believable that a person of type AB, A , or B might type as an O after many years due to degeneration of the antigen protein, but there is no way blood that lacks the A and B antigen somehow mysteriously develops it over time. That theory is a total reach.

Blood types generally have ethnic specificity. Asians tend to be type B, Eastern Europeans type A, and those of Jewish descent AB - totally consistent with authenticity of the Shroud and another strike against forgery How would the forger know the common blood type of a Jewish man when the ABO grouping system was not identified until 1901?

Oh, I agree. I think it’s a big stretch. The are tossing out hypotheses to try and explain why so much old blood is testing AB, though, but frankly, most of the old blood that has been really tested comes from guess where? The Shroud of Turin and the Sudarium of Oviedo, both associate with Jesus. Another one is the Holy Coat of Agincourt, the garment without seams that was supposedly worn by Jesus on the Via Dolorosa carrying his Cross and bleeding from the many wounds of the scourging and the blood dripping from the Crown of Thorns. All have tested as AB. I think there is some blood in a Catholic miracle that is coagulated that converts to liquid blood every specific day which also tests AB. I’m not Catholic, so you can’t prove that by me, but I’ve read that.

Why would they thus hypothesize about other explanations??? I leave that exercise to you. I follow the science. I just listed what scientists are saying and what they are researching. LOL!

[Swordmaker]

What I meant was that blood doesn’t flow out of wounds, on the upper side of the corpse, as it would when pumped by an active heart. It settles/flows/congeals at the lowest point. If there was a wound at the lowest point, it would, of course, leak/flow out until most/much blood was emptied from the body.

I figured that. My explanation was more for others than you.

However, when combined with the Sudarium of Oviedo, which mirrors many of the head wound blood flows on the Shroud, and then has separate blood stains that forensically indicate another use as possibly becoming the cloth that was rolled into a rope like form to be used to bind the jaw closed in death in the tomb, it also appears to have been used to cover the Man on the Shroud while His body was waiting to be taken down from the Cross, then again covering his head while it was removed from the Cross, and once again, while being carried in a face down position (blood draining from nose and mouth and a bloody hand print holding it on the face supporting the head) possibly on the way to the tomb.

The point is that researchers tested all this using lifelike dummies, volunteers, and then cadavers, and found that when moved into the positions the Sudarium showed the body must have been moved into in handling as it was first hung in death on the Cross, taken down with the patibulum (the cross piece), had the nails removed, and then the body carried face down, with the face supported, the blood flows seen on the body from the wounds across the chest and low back were almost an exact duplicate to what was seen on the Shroud.

I find it amazing what kind of effort people have put into doing this research and what hardship they will go to. Some have come close to dying of asphyxia in their experiments in crucifixion, seeing what those affects actually are. One scientists 30 year old son had volunteered to be the “crucifixion” subject and a couple of hours in, they wound up calling EMTs. . . He was having trouble breathing and even when they had unstrapped him was still having trouble getting his breath. Seems he had built up a huge backlog of CO₂ in his system due to not being able to exhale properly. He was a fit athlete!

[Swordmaker]

The image on the shroud has one, and does not bear marks and blood stains one would expect from someone who have been tortured, beaten, and crucified.

Uh, metmom? Restpectrully, you do not know what you are talking about. We have no idea how full the beard was before it was plucked.

By actual count, there are more than 135 dumbbell shaped wounds covering the body of the Man on the Shroud of Turin, wounds that match those inflicted by a Roman Flagrum. It’s estimated they were inflicted by two men from two different directions, one slightly taller than the other. Those are just the ones that could be counted, and don’t include those that cannot be seen on the flanks backs of the arms, inside the legs, out side of the legs, etc.

Back of the Man on the Shroud of Turin
Flagrum Scourging Wounds

Scourge wounds, with right shoulder (reversed) showing abraded
scourge wounds from carrying large wooden beam.

Scourge wounds on upper chest

Enhanced Shroud of Turin dorsal image showing
body covered with scourge marks and blood stains.
No area of the body was spared.

This is a typical Roman Flagrum of the period. Some have bits of bone attached, or sharp metal instead of lead balls, or they have multiple balls or end in dumbbell shaped sideways ends, but this one is typical from the painted images found in Hereculum and Pompeii:

As I described above, I made a Roman Flagrum for myself for a lecture series I gave. Mine was very similar to this with ⅜” lead balls on three 18” leather strips. When I very moderately swung it on a 2”x8” pine board those lead balls were imbedded a ½” deep in the wood. I wasn’t even trying.

On the man on the Shroud, every one of those wounds is blood filled. They cover his body, arms, legs, thighs, body, chest. Forensic Pathologists, about TEN of them who have studied the Shroud of Turin state that it would be surprising if most men could survive such a scourging.

[Swordmaker]

John 20:6-7Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb. He saw the linen cloths lying there, and the face cloth, which had been on Jesus' head, not lying with the linen cloths but folded up in a place by itself.

You’ve been lead by the ENGLISH translation of a GREEK text which refers to a JEWISH BURIAL practice. The actual text in Greek refers to OThonia, burial cloths. These include a Sindon, a large sheet, often a literal sail, which is the root word of the Greek word. From the Mishnah, the codified Jewish oral customs written down, the other burial dress are cloth or ropes used to bind the limbs to keep them from flopping akimbo in death. These are used to tie the ankles and wrists and sometime a binding around the legs and arms. Nothing more. Dead bodies are unclean. There is also a head cloth. This is a cloth that is placed AROUND or ABOUT the head, and the Greek word is plain this is what is being referred to here, a napkin, or a Sudarium, a “sweat cloth” and is most likely since Joseph of Arimathea is reported in another Gospel to have purchased a Fine Linen Cloth for Jesus, to be the required Jaw Binding which kept to mouth closed in death. This cloth did not cover the face, but rather was AROUND the face to keep the jaw closed. This cloth would be wound like a kerchief and would be tied so it would be under the jaw, pass behind the ears and then be knotted at the crown of the head. In addition, potsherds (a piece of broken pottery) or coins (a customer picked up from the Greeks) would be placed placed on the eyelids to keep the eyes closed in death.

Think about how this would have meaning for a disciple who comes into the tomb. He sees the Fine Linen Cloth and other bindings laying on the shelf where Jesus’ body had been placed. . . But by the door the jaw binding is by itself, where Jesus had reached up and pulled it from his head and dropped it on his way out, perhaps on a lamp shelf, away from the other grave cloths. That means he walked out!

An interesting fact, metmom, is that sweat cloth, that Sudarium still exists today! It is called the Sudarium of Oviedo and it matches the blood stains on the Shroud of Turin.

Sudarium of Oviedo
The “diagonal folded pleated area” are the indications that the cloth likely was pressed
into service as the jaw binding.

The Sudarium of Oviedo as most likely used on a person on a Cross.

It shows signs of having been used to cover the head of a Crucified Man while that man hung on a cross awaiting being taken down, then still covering his head while laying supine on the ground, then yet again while being carried face down with a bloody hand is supporting His face on the way to a tomb. It then shows signs of being rolled into a kerchief type long roll, and then being further pressed into service, most likely as the jaw binding used to keep jaw shut in death. Having the blood on it, Jewish religious law would have required it be buried with him. What better way to do it?

Used as a jaw binding explains why the hair on the man on the Shroud is pushed forward.

[Swordmaker]

There are many things that the ancients could do that we know about and yet cannot reproduce.

Not being able to reproduce it does not mean it’s genuine.

Name them.

And genuine what?

[Ann Archy]

X-Rays had NOTHING to do with The Shroud!! I said it was ONLY BECAUSE it was X-RAYED that Jesus’s image was able to be seen!

[metmom]

If the face cloth is gone missing, then the image of His face would be too.

[metmom]

Someone already mentioned stuff in Egypt and the Pyramids.

Google helps.

Ten Things the Ancients Did Better than Us

https://www.ancient-origins.net/history/ten-things-ancients-did-better-us-004557

[CodeToad]

The weave used is the biggest clue.

[annalex]

Excellent, thanks.

[Just mythoughts]

There is no way to ‘test’ what happened to the burial cloth, when Christ’s body was transfigured. I am inclined to consider the Shroud ‘real’, but, it has no ‘holy’ value.

[annalex]

See Swordmaker’s post down in the thread. Yes, it matches the burial practices of 1c AD in the Holy Land.

[annalex]

There is no date on the original, but I get e-mail notifications from that blog. I posted it within a day of receiving notification. The reason I post is to get valuable opinions from a group of people who researched the Shroud repeatedly and posted on FR.

[Joe 6-pack]

"The Medieval forgery theory would be totally convincing if it could be demonstrated how such an image could be created with the technology of the 14fh century"

I don't think there have been any successful efforts to reproduce it using 21st century technology.