Archbishop Vigano: Pope is subjecting Church to ‘powerful forces’ that want world government

Even as a Catholic, I think Pio was crazy.

If he claims to know for certain that any individual is in Hell, he thinks he's God. Parable of the vineyards.

Thanks for showing up when called, ealgeone. Glad the whistle still works!

Happy anniversary to you! We just mussed the 717th anniverwsary of Unam Sanctam, published November 18th, 1302, an encyclical on the papacy. It is not the first text on the papacy (that would be Matthew 16:19 and other authoritative statements of Christ in the Gospel), nor the last.

You might care to reference The Catechism of the Catholic Church (1994), especially sections 748-769, 811-812, and 857-896. Be sure to highlight CCC#86:

"This magisterium is not superior to the word of God, but rather its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it."

But no. Evidently Unam Sanctam is your favorite encyclical. Perhaps you think it's the only encyclical! At least, it's the only one you quote.

Therein is your problem. You have an Ultramontanist view of the papacy based on one 700-year-old text as if it had no context whatsoever, as if its interpretation were not utterly conditioned by every bit of the Deposit of Faith, the word of God which it is the papacy's obligation to serve (not replace.)

In short, the Church is the Body of Christ, not the Body of the Pope, the present Pope, the Pope we happen to have right now.

he reason an Ultramontanist will quote Unam Sanctam and nothing else, is because you do not interpret it in context. By way of example, its as if one were to take the Scripture verse "The fool says in his heart, "There is no God," and quote it thus: "Well, as the very words of Scripture say, "There is no God."

You have no doubt made an honest attempt to "think with the Church" about papal authority, its nature and its limits, and in that endeavor I strongly recommend the following links:

On the Limits of the Pope

and...

Things That Can't Change

Thanks for your attention to this correction. I do hope you and other Christian brehren will be vastly relieved to find that your Ultramontane (Papal Maximalist) view of the office of the Pope is not what is taught by the Catholic Church.

You're saying Unam Sanctam is no longer binding on the Roman Catholic....because it's old?

What other Roman Catholic dogmas are to be dismissed because they're old?

Thanks for the ,*ping*. I’m happy to follow along with your conversation.

Except we are not leading a movement. I keep my beliefs about this pope to myself. It’s between me and God. Isn’t that what you Protestants are always espousing?

So yeah, big difference between me and Luther.

It’s your right to stay quiet.

See, there you go again with the hubris. It’s only a falsehood if you have incontrovertible evidence to the contrary. Since none of us here on Earth have actually been to heaven and come back to talk about it, we have no idea about God’s mercy and patience. Is He an absolutist or does He let little things slide? Is the Bible the ONLY word on what God expects from us or will we be shocked to see Ghandi in Heaven?

For you to state that what Catholics believe is a “falsehood” instead reflects arrogance and is intractable and bullying behavior. I highly doubt that’s what God meant when He said “Love one another as yourself.”

Is the Bible the ONLY word on what God expects from us or will we be shocked to see Ghandi in Heaven?

Yes...the Bible is His word.

As Ghandi was not a believer in Christ he will not be in Heaven.

Yeesh. It's not a matter of a writing being old, as if had an expiration date. (Hint: which is older, the Bible or the 14 century A.D.?) If that's your reading of what I wrote, you have missed the point.

Please read the catechism and links. It takes a bit of time and thought, but it's worth it.

So does this approach actually work with anyone? You harangue a person with devout religious beliefs, ridicule their faith, and insult them...for what? I doubt it’s to “save their soul” because God told you to. Nobody of faith would abandon their church because a bully on a website criticized it.

Maybe instead of trolling on FR for ppl to pontificate to, you might wanna spend more time on your knees thinking about humility. The meek will inherit the Earth, remember?

Am I loving my neighbor if I just let things “slide” and don’t tell them the truth?

You SEEM to be a fool. You SEEM to have no clue as what our commission is in this dispensation of the GRACE of God. You SEEM to be ignorant of exactly WHAT God expects from His workmen now. You SEEM to be content to be completely impotent in your walk with God. Bluntly put, you SEEM to be lost.
And proud of it. Goid luck with all that.
Romans 2:16.

Yeesh. It's not a matter of a writing being old, as if had an expiration date. (Hint: which is older, the Bible or the 14 century A.D.?) If that's your reading of what I wrote, you have missed the point.

I only questioned the age aspect of your post as you posted the below [empahsis mine]:

Therein is your problem. You have an Ultramontanist view of the papacy based on one 700-year-old text as if it had no context whatsoever, as if its interpretation were not utterly conditioned by every bit of the Deposit of Faith, the word of God which it is the papacy's obligation to serve (not replace.)

Roman Catholics to this day still try to distance themselves from this dogmatic teaching of their denomination.

Unam Sanctam was a far sweeping attempt of a power grab by the pope.

I dare say if Rome could claim that for today it would.

Now, to be clear, as you are always saying for me to ask you what you believe.....are you saying one does not have to be subject to the Roman Pontiff for salvation?

I was saying that a lot of authoritative things have been written about the Petrine Ministry both before and after 1302, but you have an odd attraction to this one 1302 text, as if it were a fly trapped in amber.

To answer your question: yes.

For example: Salvation is portrayed by Christ, on several occasions, as sitting down at the banquet with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. As far as I know, none of these patriarchs were subjects of the Roman Pontiff: for that matter, they were not baptized Christians. Whether they even accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior, I will leave unremarked.

Matthew 8:11-12
"I say to you, many will come from the east and the west, and will recline with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob at the banquet in the kingdom of heaven, but the children of the kingdom will be driven out into the outer darkness, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth."

To be clear.....one does not have to be subject to the Roman Pontiff for salvation?

More specifically, "are you saying one does not have to be subject to the Roman Pontiff for salvation"... in the present Church age?

I look forward to your response.

Thank you for a good question. My fave deacon and I were just this morning discussing this very thing, as it happens.

I want to give you a reference to a document from the Second Vatican Council entitled "Lumen Gentium" ("Light of the Nations"). You need to look at paragraphs 14, 15, 16.

It's wordy (though they are well-considered words) but let's boil it down to the basics. Notice that there are references to different people.

#14 addresses "firstly.. the Catholic faithful." The necessity of remaining in Christ and His Church --- the Church which we enter by Baptism and the profession of Faith---is emphasized.

In #15, a shift of focus to those who are united to God and to Jesus Christ our Savior, by faith and love, but are not visibly members of the Catholic Church. Their union with the whole Church is emphasized here.

In #16, another shift of focus: to those who have not yet received the Gospel. It declares "Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God," (a direct reference to what St. Paul said to the pagans at the Areopagus in Athens. in the book of Acts). It contains also this grave warning:

"But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair."

Then it goes on to proclaim (in the last line of that paragraph) that therefore, we must carry out the essential mission of "preaching the Gospel to every creature."

As I read it, the bottom line here, is that one the one hand, everyone needs to be one with and in Christ -- which is what is meant by Faith --- and at the same time, we are responsible for what we know: God, being just, will use even a fragmentary faith to draw us into the fullness of the truth, by His grace, and "Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel."(20*)

I expect that might raise even more questions. If you want to send the tennis ball over the net again, go right on ahead. It could be a good discussion.

((BTW, Thanks, thanks for the evident good will. I like it if we both keep on a non-belligerent level. I find that so refreshing. ))

To be clear (sorry for getting mixed up into a different thread):

Although (LG#14) "Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved." (which is what Unam Sanctam was talking about)--- nevertheless..

If somebody did not know that this was necessary--- through no fault of their own --- then they still mercifully have access to grace as explained in #15 and #16.

Because God actually wants people to be saved.

Thanks. I read the whole, long document but spared myself from reading:
CHAPTER VIII THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY, MOTHER OF GOD  IN THE MYSTERY OF CHRIST AND THE CHURCH

Reading your quoted segments of the three paragraphs (14, 15, and 16), I knew immediately that what you call the “Church” is not what I call the “Church.”

This is confirmed by what I see in paragraph 8 of the referenced document:

This is the one Church of Christ which in the Creed is professed as one, holy, catholic and apostolic, (12*) which our Saviour, after His Resurrection, commissioned Peter to shepherd,(74) and him and the other apostles to extend and direct with authority,(75) which He erected for all ages as "the pillar and mainstay of the truth".(76) This Church constituted and organized in the world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him,(13*) although many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of its visible structure. These elements, as gifts belonging to the Church of Christ, are forces impelling toward catholic unity.

This difference is fundamental and has been argued many times before in these threads.

To save others the trouble, here are five paragraphs, including the three you quoted in part - all in their entirety:

13. All men are called to belong to the new people of God. Wherefore this people, while remaining one and only one, is to be spread throughout the whole world and must exist in all ages, so that the decree of God's will may be fulfilled. In the beginning God made human nature one and decreed that all His children, scattered as they were, would finally be gathered together as one. (117) It was for this purpose that God sent His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things,(118) that be might be teacher, king and priest of all, the head of the new and universal people of the sons of God. For this too God sent the Spirit of His Son as Lord and Life-giver. He it is who brings together the whole Church and each and every one of those who believe, and who is the well-spring of their unity in the teaching of the apostles and in fellowship, in the breaking of bread and in prayers.(119)
It follows that though there are many nations there is but one people of God, which takes its citizens from every race, making them citizens of a kingdom which is of a heavenly rather than of an earthly nature. All the faithful, scattered though they be throughout the world, are in communion with each other in the Holy Spirit, and so, he who dwells in Rome knows that the people of India are his members"(9*). Since the kingdom of Christ is not of this world(120) the Church or people of God in establishing that kingdom takes nothing away from the temporal welfare of any people. On the contrary it fosters and takes to itself, insofar as they are good, the ability, riches and customs in which the genius of each people expresses itself. Taking them to itself it purifies, strengthens, elevates and ennobles them. The Church in this is mindful that she must bring together the nations for that king to whom they were given as an inheritance,(121) and to whose city they bring gifts and offerings.(122) This characteristic of universality which adorns the people of God is a gift from the Lord Himself. By reason of it, the Catholic Church strives constantly and with due effect to bring all humanity and all its possessions back to its source In Christ, with Him as its head and united in His Spirit. (10*)
In virtue of this catholicity each individual part contributes through its special gifts to the good of the other parts and of the whole Church. Through the common sharing of gifts and through the common effort to attain fullness in unity, the whole and each of the parts receive increase. Not only, then, is the people of God made up of different peoples but in its inner structure also it is composed of various ranks. This diversity among its members arises either by reason of their duties, as is the case with those who exercise the sacred ministry for the good of their brethren, or by reason of their condition and state of life, as is the case with those many who enter the religious state and, tending toward holiness by a narrower path, stimulate their brethren by their example. Moreover, within the Church particular Churches hold a rightful place; these Churches retain their own traditions, without in any way opposing the primacy of the Chair of Peter, which presides over the whole assembly of charity (11*) and protects legitimate differences, while at the same time assuring that such differences do not hinder unity but rather contribute toward it. Between all the parts of the Church there remains a bond of close communion whereby they share spiritual riches, apostolic workers and temporal resources. For the members of the people of God are called to share these goods in common, and of each of the Churches the words of the Apostle hold good: "According to the gift that each has received, administer it to one another as good stewards of the manifold grace of God".(123)
All men are called to be part of this catholic unity of the people of God which in promoting universal peace presages it. And there belong to or are related to it in various ways, the Catholic faithful, all who believe in Christ, and indeed the whole of mankind, for all men are called by the grace of God to salvation.

14. This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.
They are fully incorporated in the society of the Church who, possessing the Spirit of Christ accept her entire system and all the means of salvation given to her, and are united with her as part of her visible bodily structure and through her with Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. The bonds which bind men to the Church in a visible way are profession of faith, the sacraments, and ecclesiastical government and communion. He is not saved, however, who, though part of the body of the Church, does not persevere in charity. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but, as it were, only in a "bodily" manner and not "in his heart."(12*) All the Church's children should remember that their exalted status is to be attributed not to their own merits but to the special grace of Christ. If they fail moreover to respond to that grace in thought, word and deed, not only shall they not be saved but they will be the more severely judged.(13*)
Catechumens who, moved by the Holy Spirit, seek with explicit intention to be incorporated into the Church are by that very intention joined with her. With love and solicitude Mother Church already embraces them as her own.

15. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ's disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. (17*) Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth.

16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, "Preach the Gospel to every creature",(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.

17. As the Son was sent by the Father,(131) so He too sent the Apostles, saying: "Go, therefore, make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And behold I am with you all days even to the consummation of the world".(132) The Church has received this solemn mandate of Christ to proclaim the saving truth from the apostles and must carry it out to the very ends of the earth.(133) Wherefore she makes the words of the Apostle her own: "Woe to me, if I do not preach the Gospel",(134) and continues unceasingly to send heralds of the Gospel until such time as the infant churches are fully established and can themselves continue the work of evangelizing. For the Church is compelled by the Holy Spirit to do her part that God's plan may be fully realized, whereby He has constituted Christ as the source of salvation for the whole world. By the proclamation of the Gospel she prepares her hearers to receive and profess the faith. She gives them the dispositions necessary for baptism, snatches them from the slavery of error and of idols and incorporates them in Christ so that through charity they may grow up into full maturity in Christ. Through her work, whatever good is in the minds and hearts of men, whatever good lies latent in the religious practices and cultures of diverse peoples, is not only saved from destruction but is also cleansed, raised up and perfected unto the glory of God, the confusion of the devil and the happiness of man. The obligation of spreading the faith is imposed on every disciple of Christ, according to his state.(21*) Although, however, all the faithful can baptize, the priest alone can complete the building up of the Body in the eucharistic sacrifice. Thus are fulfilled the words of God, spoken through His prophet: "From the rising of the sun until the going down thereof my name is great among the gentiles, and in every place a clean oblation is sacrificed and offered up in my name".(135)(22*) In this way the Church both prays and labors in order that the entire world may become the People of God, the Body of the Lord and the Temple of the Holy Spirit, and that in Christ, the Head of all, all honor and glory may be rendered to the Creator and Father of the Universe.

I respect the attitude you demonstrated, responding to my question. It’s late now and the Greg Gutfeld show is on so I will spend some time thinking about the content of these five paragraphs. I promise, in the next couple days I plan to dissect portions of these paragraphs.

The bottom line is, I already know there are a lot of doctrinal and theological problems in these five paragraphs (along with many other assertions made in the referenced document.)

Kindly,

Ken

May I ask you for a favor? Could you reformat that with more paragraph breaks and no italics?

I don't mean to be annoyingly picky, but my old eyes are seriously substandard, to the point where I find that screen almost unreadable.

Bedtime now. Blessings to you. See you tomorrow morning.

Abp Vigano: Pope is subjecting Church to ‘powerful forces’ that want world government