Archbishop Vigano: Pope is subjecting Church to ‘powerful forces’ that want world government

There is so much to say about the document that you referred to me. Here is paragraph 14 and “Part I” of my response to you. I will take other sections as time allows. Paragraph 14 deals directly with the question I posed to you earlier.
"Are you saying one does not have to be subject to the Roman Pontiff for salvation in the present Church age?”

14. This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church[1], now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator[2] and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism[3] as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain[3] in it, could not be saved.

[1] by “Church” the “Sacred Council” means the RCC. See Paragraph 8 -

This is the one Church of Christ which in the Creed is professed as one, holy, catholic and apostolic, (12*) which our Saviour, after His Resurrection, commissioned Peter to shepherd,(74) and him and the other apostles to extend and direct with authority,(75) which He erected for all ages as "the pillar and mainstay of the truth".(76) This Church constituted and organized in the world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him,(13*) although many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of its visible structure. These elements, as gifts belonging to the Church of Christ, are forces impelling toward catholic unity.

Now, please refer to the bracketed references in paragraph 14.

[2] Christ… is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation.

That’s true. And I wish all RCs believed that faith in Christ alone, and not the addition of their works, is God’s plan of salvation.

[3] through baptism as through a door men enter the Church.

That’s not true. Baptism does not save us. Faith does.

Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain[3] in it, could not be saved.

Knowing that the “Sacred Council” means the RCC, I know with absolute certainty that this is false. It was ONLY after I left the RCC and its numerous examples of non-Biblical false teaching and man-made traditions that I received the free gift of salvation, through faith in Jesus Christ because of God’s immeasurable love for me. The RCC plays no role in bringing people to salvation – except, perhaps for the contrast to Truth that it demonstrates for men to are convinced by the Holy Spirit of their need for a Savior. Today, I have a personal relationship with Christ. The notion of a personal relationship with Christ is rare in the RCC and is not taught by its various, unnecessary intermediaries.

Thanks, Ken, for reformatting and enlarging that. It makes it possible for me to read it. Just a few comments, if I may. I have the Cath. document bolded, yours in italics, mine in plain type.

"Christ… is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation.

"And I wish all RCs believed that faith in Christ alone, and not the addition of their works, is God’s plan of salvation."

You may agree that, according to Scripture, there are two kinds of faith: living and dead. Based on that Biblical distinction, what kind of faith saves? Surely it is a living faith that saves, and not a dead faith.

St James says outright, James 2:17-10

"Faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
But someone will say,
“You have faith, and I have works.”
Show me your faith without your works,
and I will show you my faith
by my works.
You believe that there is one God
You do well.
Even the demons believe—and tremble!
But do you want proof, you ignoramus,
that faith without works is dead?
Was not Abraham our father justified by works
when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
You see that faith was active along with his works,
and faith was completed by the works.

Sometimes people mistakenly try to play James against Paul on this (I am NOT saying you would do this) but it won't work. Paul himself identifies and rejects a kind of dead faith, a false faith, a "faith alone" without love (1 Corinthians 13:2-3)

If I have the gift of prophecy
and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge;
if I have all faith so as to move mountains
but do not have love, I am nothing.
If I give away everything I own, though I give my body to be burned, and have not love,
I gain nothing.

So Paul shows there is not only such a thing as dead works, there's also such a thing as dead faith.

If neither dead faith nor dead works can profit us anything, then what is needed? Love. Love makes living faith and living works, and they go together.

Here's a wise quote:

"Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire! Therefore, watch out for your own false ideas and guard against good-for-nothing gossips, who think they're smart enough to define faith and works, but really are the greatest of fools.
(From “An Introduction to St. Paul’s Letter to the Romans,” Luther’s German Bible of 1522 by Martin Luther, 1483-1546 Translated by Rev. Robert E. Smith)

Not that he's your authority-- and I'm no Lutheran myself--but I think he got that right.

That’s why I said “faith in Christ alone”
For by grace you have been saved, through faith.

I’m not talking about another kind of faith and I’m not depending on dead works that are done apart from saving faith.

The document you referred to a few days ago is absolutely full of doctrinal error. Honestly, I don’t have the time to deal with it. I could spend a month picking out the errors, explaining them to you, and getting no where with you.

This is demonstrated by your response to “Part I”. You twisted what I said into something else, erected a straw man, and destroyed it.

I don’t have time for that “cat and mouse” game. I have seen the same hackneyed debates rage for over two decades on FR. Yes, this is not my original screen name. (I was booted for supporting the wrong primary candidate.)

I asked a question, you almost answered it, referred me to a long-winded, error-packed treatise (that fully answered my question according to my suspicion), I read almost all of it, I identified the errors in paragraph 14 (the most pertinent to the question), and in your response you introduced some other topic (Dead works).

I go back a long way here. I’ve tried to help advance the Kingdom by using God’s Word to show people the numerous errors of the RCC - errors that are so far outside of orthodoxy that the lead people away from the Kingdom.

I admire the men and women here on FR who continuously try to lead the lost to a better understanding of God’s plan for them. I hope the best for them and you.

Kindly,

KR

Good morning!

Sometimes I regret that we (I) have ever been influenced by the super-summarized "Tweet" style of discourse. And sometimes I think that's *all* we should do.

So I'll boil it down: neither dead faith (without the love of Christ) nor dead works (without the love of Christ) profits us anything. Only being in, remaining in, clinging to the Love of Christ, avails for salvation.

N'est pas?

Oui

Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Luk 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Joh 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Joh 12:36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

Joh 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Joh 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

1Th 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1Ti 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

1Jo 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

“ No Catholic who believes what their church tells them has any assurance of salvation. They would consider such a belief presumptuous since salvation and the promise of heaven depends on one's own actions in life and the action of others who intercede (even after you are dead to help advance you through purgatory). Thus, they deny that Jesus Christ atoned for all sin at the cross. Therefore, they have no law of faith within them.”

(From HERE)

And it is noteworthy that in your long-winded, referenced treatise, given by people who have the unmitigated, presumptuous notion that they are a “Sacred Counsel“ (and bring council that only leads to eternal death), that in their entire document, the word “assurance“ never appears!

Good morning, again, Ken. I'm back. That perplexing quote you put at the top of your message, has a "HERE" link that links right back to your same message. The quote makes several erroneous points, but before I comment, could you please tell me whom you're quoting, or fix the link? THanks.

Now for coffee.. :o)

I love all those Scripture quotes. They are super, fit for much reflections.

May I now use my own impressive cut-and-paste capacities, to give you all the quotes about the superiority and indispensability of love?

Which is not to contradict.

HERE is the real “here”. Sorry.

And once again, I have personal knowledge and personal experience of the role that works play in the RCC.

Just like the Galatians, they have been “bewitched” into thinking that they are now being perfected in the flesh.

Now, I am done with this fruitless effort. Bye.

Bye, and have a Blessed Thanksgiving.