Posted on 10/18/2019 3:57:48 PM PDT by ebb tide
During the first press conference of the Amazonian synod Bishop David Martínez De Aguirre Guinea, O.P., one of the special secretaries appointed by Francis, gave a response that lends weight to reports that the shamanistic ritual conducted in the Vatican Gardens was, indeed, the worship of the pagan idol, Pachamama. Bishop Martínez said:
"Those who used this symbol wished it to reflect fertility, to women, to life, the life present among the Amazonian people and Amazonia as an entity full of life. I don’t think we need to make connections with the Virgin Mary or with a pagan element."
While Bishop Martínez makes it clear that it was not the Virgin Mary, (as had been suggested), his denial that the statues of the pregnant, naked women bearing tribal markings are connected with paganism doesn’t make sense. A shaman priestess led a circle of people in prostrating themselves numerous times in homage before these idols. Getty Images’s official press photograph of the ritual, included the caption: ‘Pope Francis and Cardinal Cardinal Cláudio Hummes, Archbishop Emeritus of São Paulo, President of the Pan-Amazonian Ecclesial Network (REPAM), stand in front of a statue representing Pachamama (Mother Earth)’. Pachamama is worshiped in Latin America as a ‘goddess’ of fertility, life and the harvest, originating in Inca mythology with its bloody history of human sacrifice, especially of young children.
In the past, Catholics would have had no difficulty recognising Pachamama as a demon. However now, not only was the Pachamama idol used in the context of a non-Christian ritual conducted in the Vatican, but it was also venerated in the sacred precincts of St. Peter’s Basilica in front of the Tomb of St. Peter. Furthermore, Francis greeted two bishops carrying the Pachamama idol on their shoulders processing it into the Synod Hall where it was set in a place of honour. Pachamama idols are also on display in the Cardinal Ouellet’s titular church, Santa Maria in Traspontina, along with a poster displaying photographs of an indigenous woman breast-feeding an animal.
As Catholics we are faced with an appalling question, has a demon, intentionally due to wickedness, or unintentionally due to culpable ignorance, been enthroned at the Amazonian synod?
The Christian horror of idolatry
St. Paul is clear that idols are demonic representations, to which the devil and demons are attached:
"Therefore, my beloved, shun the worship of idols…What pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God. I do not want you to be partners with demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons. Shall we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than he?" (I Cor 10: 14, 20-22.)
St. Paul spells out the horror of Christians participating in the worship of demons — it creates an unholy communion between those who worship idols and the associated demon. He is clear that those who are joined to demons cannot remain in communion with Christ, and that they exclude themselves from the Eucharist. They excommunicate themselves.
Tertullian states that idols are the ‘property of demons’ and that the admission of the makers of idols into the Church, and even ministry, is a cause of great grief to the faithful:
"Bewailing that a Christian should come from idols into the Church; should come from an adversary workshop into the house of God; should raise to God the Father hands which are the mothers of idols; should pray to God with the hands which, out of doors, are prayed to in opposition to God; should apply to the Lord's body those hands which confer bodies on demons. Nor is this sufficient. Grant that it be a small matter, if from other hands they receive what they contaminate; but even those very hands deliver to others what they have contaminated." (Tertullian, On Idolatry)
Those who have made idols, or received from idol-makers, are contaminated by the unholiness of the associated demons and they contaminate all who they come into contact. Tertullian saw idolatry as a contagion spread by those who give honour and service to demons.
Leaving aside the worship of idols, Pope St. Gregory harshly condemned bishops assuming a receptive attitude towards pagan cultures. When informed that Bishop Desiderius was giving lectures on pagan poets he wrote a letter expressing his horror:
"This thing we took so much amiss, and so strongly disapproved it, that we changed what had been said before into groaning and sadness, since the praises of Christ cannot find room in one mouth with the praises of Jupiter. And consider yourself what a grave and heinous offence it is for bishops to sing what is not becoming even for a religious layman."
Surrounded by the ruins of the pagan culture of Imperial Rome, Pope St. Gregory knew well that the presence of demons, in the guise of idols, contaminated the entire culture. Those contaminated by praising idolatrous cultures incapacitate their own ability to truly praise our Lord.
St. Thomas Aquinas examined what causes people to worship idols in the first place. Fr. Delaporte provides a summary of Aquinas’s teaching as follows:
"Man might be in part the cause of idolatry, by the disorder of his affections, by the pleasure he found in symbolical representations, and by his ignorance. But the fundamental cause (consummativa) must be sought in devils, who cause men to adore them under the form of idols, therein working certain things which excited their wonder and admiration." (Summary of ST II, 94 in Fr. Delaporte. The Devil: does he exist and what does he do?)
Whenever we see individuals excited by, and expressing admiration of, idol worship we know that they are directly under the influence of demons and are acting in a way totally antithetical to the worship of God.
And in our own day, Fr Jeremy Davies, the renowned exorcist and co-founder with Fr Gabriele Amorth of the International Association of Exorcists, warns that all natural religions, including Hinduism, Buddhism, Shintoism and Animism, have a demonic influence on adherents and participants because they involve sins which have a special affinity with the devil:
"The Church has always recognised that there is a good side to these pagan religions but that there is also an idolatrous demonic side (I Cor 10:14-22; 2 Cor 6:14-18) — for they are simply the kind of religion that fallen man naturally makes for himself, but they make claims to teach the way to God."(Fr. Jeremy Davies, Exorcism: Understanding exorcism in scripture and practise.)
The contagion of idol worship
From the above we can conclude, that those who participated in the shamanistic worship of the demon Pachamama in the Vatican have, to varying degrees, been in contact with the demonic. If they were excited and enjoyed the rituals and processions associated with Pachamama we can assume that they are under the influence of demons. Demonic contamination and influence may well impair, or even incapacitate, their ability to offer worthy praise to Jesus through prayer, liturgy and teaching. In the worst cases, those who have knowingly participated in demonic worship may have excommunicated themselves.
All those who participated in the Pachamama rituals are a danger to others in the Church because they will spread the contagion of idol worship. It is likely that some synod fathers will even further extoll and disseminate the demonic nature religions of the Amazon. The fact that the Pachamama idol was processed into the Synod Hall is a grave cause for concern because it places a demon at the heart of the Amazonian synod’s deliberations. The danger is that many evils may be introduced into the Church that will have the devil as their author. In response to this sacrilegious insult to God and this mortal peril to souls we should pray:
Crux Sacra Sit Mihi Lux
Non Draco Sit Mihi Dux
Vade Retro Satana
Nunquam Suade Mihi Vana
Sunt Mala Quae Libas
Ipse Venena Biba! Amen.
May the Holy Cross be my light
Let not the dragon be my guide
Begone Satan
Never tempt me with your vanities
All that pours from you is evil.
Drink your own poison. Amen.
Answer: The word communion means “an act or instance of sharing.” When the Apostles’ Creed speaks of the “communion of the saints,” it is not just specifically referring to the Lord's Supper/Holy Communion in which believers come together to remember Jesus’ sacrifice through the bread and the wine. The communion of the saints is much deeper than this important ordinance.
The communion of the saints refers to believers in the past, believers in the present, and believers in the years to come sharing a common salvation in our Savior the Lord Jesus Christ. Those who have passed from this world into the presence of Christ at the death of their body have the same salvation as believers who are alive today. Those who will come after us will have the same salvation we have.
The communion of saints is what each one of us has in common with all other believers. We have been forgiven through His death and saved by His life (Romans 5:10), set free from the law of sin and death (Romans 8:2), and passed from spiritual death to eternal life (1 John 3:16). We have all been permanently adopted as children of God by the will of God (John 1:12-13). We have become God's handiwork to do good works that He has prepared for us (Ephesians 2:10), and we have all been given an eternal home in the New Jerusalem in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ, our Lamb, our Temple, and our Light (Revelation 21:22–27). These are only a few of the blessings we have in common with all other believers.
https://www.gotquestions.org/communion-of-the-saints.html
Thanks be to God -— in addition to Christ at Mt Tabor-—we have thousands of instances.
Not of believers here on earth communicating with believers in Heaven. No.
On the other hand, the ordinary rules of evidence would support believers one earth communicating with believers in heaven, and heavenly persons acting as intercessors.
Angels, for instance: "An angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God” (Rev. 8:3–4).
Jesus is the only mediator between man and God, but it's wrong to think we shouldn't ask our fellow Christians to pray for us. We do well to ask the intercession of those Christians in heaven, who are now completely sanctified, because the prayer of a righteous man "is powerful and effectual." (James 5:16).
I think the main conceptual problem people have with this, is that though they *say* they know the Christian departed are alive with God, they do not understand the implications of this, and act as though they're spiritually dead.
The Christian departed are still --- and more than ever --- members of the living Christ, and we who are in communion with Christ are in communion with them.
That's what "Communion of Saints" means. Tagline
Yet that is what is evidenced in the NT.
On the other hand, the ordinary rules of evidence would support believers one earth communicating with believers in heaven, and heavenly persons acting as intercessors.
Ordinary rules of evidence? Seriously?
You have no evidence for your claim.
This is why Rome has to have a patron saint for seemingly everything much as the Roman Empire had a god/goddess for everything.
Jesus is the only mediator between man and God,
Except in Roman Catholicism where Mary has been accorded the title of Mediatrix.
but it's wrong to think we shouldn't ask our fellow Christians to pray for us. We do well to ask the intercession of those Christians in heaven, who are now completely sanctified, because the prayer of a righteous man "is powerful and effectual." (James 5:16).
And again...as evidenced in the NT these are people on earth.
The Christian departed are still --- and more than ever --- members of the living Christ, and we who are in communion with Christ are in communion with them.
Again another false assertion that somehow the prayer of a departed believer is more effective than a believer here on earth.
And what should really be of concern to the Roman Catholic is how do they even know who is or is not in Heaven.
From what I've gathered on these forums the bulk of Roman Catholics are still in purgatory.
However, all this continues to illustrate a lack of faith/trust on the part of the Roman Catholic in the words of revealed/inspired Scripture.
I think a lot of this goes back to the medieval period writings depicting Jesus as the mean ol' judge and Mary being the benevolent, caring mother.
Recall when the disciples asked Jesus to teach them to pray He instructed them to pray to the Father. Not Moses. Not Abraham. Not Mary.
Consider, as Elsie has noted before, how many prayers a day Mary would have to handle IF all of the estimated 1.3b RCs said a prayer a day.
She has to process the language of every person on earth.
She has to perfectly and accurately hear, understand and intervene for each prayer offered.
1.3 billion Catholics/86,400 seconds in a day = 15,197 prayers a second Mary has to be able to understand and answer if every Roman Catholic said one prayer a day to Mary.
Mary has been elevated to have to capabilities of the Holy Spirit. Indeed, I'd venture to say she's replaced the Holy Spirit in Roman Catholicism.
26In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. Romans 8:26-27
*****
Can the believer have confidence in their prayers to God?
You betcha.
Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need. Hebrews 4:16
In Him and through faith in Him we may enter God's presence with boldness and confidence. Eph 3:12
14This is the confidence which we have before Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15And if we know that He hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests which we have asked from Him. 1 John 5:14-15
There is nothing in the NT stating that the saints in heaven are no longer in communion with Christ, and therefore no longer in communion with us.
Do you realize that the members of the Body love each other and share spiritual gifts? Do you think death is strong enough to stop us from loving and sharing, when we are with Christ in heaven?
Surely not.
If you understood that, you would understand about Mary, whose interventions on our behalf are a consequence of her being a member of Christ's Body, which we are as well. Or do you say she is not?
But that's the key thing. Mary is *not* a rival to Christ, a competitor to Christ, a peer to Christ, an equivalent to Christ, or a mediator "by the side of" Christ.
She is *in* Christ and Christ is in her. As in you. As in me. As in the Church. As in all the saint, both in this world and in the world to come.
Is this audacious? Probably even more audacious than you realize. Because you can say, like Mary can say, with the Apostle Paul:
"I am crucified with Christ,
nevertheless I live;
yet not I,
but Christ liveth in me.
And the life which I now live
in the flesh,
I live by the faith
of the Son of God,
who loved me
and gave Himself for me."
However, there is nothing in the NT saying they are. The evidence we have in the NT is that we do not communicate with fellow believers in Heaven nor they with us. As much as I'd love to talk to my mom and dad I cannot.
Do you realize that the members of the Body love each other and share spiritual gifts?
Yes. The spiritual gifts noted in the NT were to be used to build up each other and the church.
Do you think death is strong enough to stop us from loving and sharing, when we are with Christ in heaven?
Again, we have no examples of this in the NT. I know Rome says otherwise, but Rome has a lot of non-Biblical practices.
What is noted in the NT is fellowship/communication or whatever you want to call it, between believers and God as far as believers here.
That in itself is or should be sufficient.
Consider: WE have access to the sovereign Creator of the universe and He wants to have fellowship with us.
If you understood that, you would understand about Mary, whose interventions on our behalf are a consequence of her being a member of Christ's Body, which we are as well. Or do you say she is not?
Again, this is not a NT teaching. Mary simply cannot intervene for the believers on earth. Only God has that capability. This is why Christianity rejects the RC positions on Mary as Mediatrix, Co-redemptrix, Auxilatrix.
They run counter to Scripture.
But that's the key thing. Mary is *not* a rival to Christ, a competitor to Christ, a peer to Christ, an equivalent to Christ, or a mediator "by the side of" Christ.
Yet that is how Roman Catholic writers have positioned her. I know you don't like Ligouri(sp) and others, but that is what they've written. Now, if you are willing to say those "Doctors of the Church" are wrong, that's a different conversation.
Is that what you're saying?
She is *in* Christ and Christ is in her. As in you. As in me. As in the Church. As in all the saint, both in this world and in the world to come.
Yes...except Mary is in Heaven as are all departed believers and we simply cannot communicate with them or vice versa for all the reasons aforementioned. There is NO purgatory.
Is this audacious? Probably even more audacious than you realize.
The Roman Catholic position is in error again for the reasons mentioned.
Because you can say, like Mary can say, with the Apostle Paul: "I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me. And the life which I now live in the flesh, I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me."
Yes....believers in Christ can say this.
But Roman Catholicism's writers say we have to do this through Mary which is not found anywhere in the NT.
It is through Christ and Christ alone that we are saved. Only Christ.
Are we not in Christ?
Well, I know I am.
However, Roman Catholicism has added the requirement, or at least the belief, that one has to go through Mary to get to Christ among a whole bunch of other things one "must do".
Again, this is a non-biblical position.
This is what is meant by "Faith."
That's it.
While I agree with that and I encouraged to see you affirm this, the Roman Catholic church says otherwise.
Rome has added greatly to this.
To be a Roman Catholic one has to be in Jesus and in Mary among other things.
That is in contradiction to what you posted above.
It's actually not in contradiction. Consider Christ's priestly prayer for unity:
Neither pray I for these alone,
but for them also
which shall believe on me through their word;
That they all may be one;
as thou, Father, art in me,
and I in thee,
that they also may be one in us:
that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
And the glory which thou gavest me
I have given them;
that they may be one, even as we are one:
I in them, and thou in me,
that they may be made perfect in one;
and that the world may know
that thou hast sent me,
and hast loved them,
as thou hast loved me.
Read that slowly, pausing after clauses, as if for the first time.
We're all to be one in Christ, in each other. Mary is eminently a part of that, since Christ, the Word made flesh, was first in her. It's a stupendously wonderful thing: the Incarnation.
Nope. You’re reading back into the text a meaning not in the text. It’s either Christ alone or it’s not Christianity.
To whom must we confess our sins? Christ. Who heals us? Christ. Who is effective? Who is righteous? Whose prayer avails much? Christ.
The only way you can pray, effectively, is if Christ is in you and you are in Christ.
Every time you ask a believer to pray for you, or you pray for them, you are seeing in action the help, the power, the effectiveness, the intercession that happens IN CHRIST.
That's why we can have millions of people interceding for each other, and it's Christ Alone.
Or start with this: who are you?
Aren't you a temple of the Holy Spirit?
Aren't you “in Christ”? (Romans 8:1) And doesn't Christ dwell in you?
Isn't your life “hidden with Christ in God” ? (Colossians 3:3).
Aren't you, as a believer, a partaker in the divine nature?"
2 Peter 1:3-4 says, “His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having completely escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire”.
Could anything said of a human being, be greater than that?
You’re so close to the Truth on this issue.
You just made the case for NT Christianity.
We confess our sins to Christ. Not a priest. Only Christ can forgive us.
Didn't you even notice it? Maybe io I bold a few wods, it'ss stand out for you:
]
"Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much." James 5:16
The point here, is that al/b>
though it is Christ to whom we confess, and pray, and ask for healing, and Who alone is righteous, and Whose effective, fervent prayer avails much, the actual Scripture says, we are to do this to and for one another.
The point is that if we are in Christ we can do what Christ does. We are associated,or joined to, what Christ does.
The paradox is, Christ Alone does these things,and we are in Christ.
Amazing! You just ignored the Scripture I quoted!
Didn't you even notice it? Maybe if I bold a few words, it'll stand out for you:
"Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much." James 5:16
The point here, is that although it is Christ to whom we confess, and pray, and ask for healing, and Who alone is righteous, and Whose effective, fervent prayer avails much, the actual Scripture says, we are to do this to and for one another.
The point is that if we are in Christ we can do what Christ does. We are associated,or joined to, what Christ does.
The paradox is, Christ Alone does these things, and we are in Christ.
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