Posted on 06/05/2019 11:27:40 AM PDT by Gamecock
“Falling away results in loss of growth and eternal gifts.”
That isn’t what the Bible says. Put down Calvin. Pick up your Bible! As Barnes puts it:
“For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth - If after we are converted and become true Christians we should apostatize, it would be impossible to be recovered again, for there would be no other sacrifice for sin; no way by which we could be saved. This passage, however, like Hebrews 6:4-6, has given rise to much difference of opinion. But that the above is the correct interpretation, seems evident to me from the following considerations:
(1) It is the natural and obvious interpretation, such as would occur probably to ninety-nine readers in a hundred, if there were no theory to support, and no fear that it would conflict with some other doctrine.
(2) it accords with the scope of the Epistle, which is, to keep those whom the apostle addressed from returning again to the Jewish religion, under the trials to which they were subjected.
(3) it is in accordance with the fair meaning of the language - the words “after that we have received the knowledge of the truth,” referring more naturally to true conversion than to any other state of mind.
(4) the sentiment would not be correct if it referred to any but real Christians. It would not be true that one who had been somewhat enlightened, and who then sinned “wilfully,” must look on fearfully to the judgment without a possibility of being saved. There are multitudes of cases where such persons are saved. They “wilfully” resist the Holy Spirit; they strive against him; they for a long time refuse to yield, but they are brought again to reflection, and are led to give their hearts to God.”
As Paul puts it in Romans 11:
“But if some of the branches of the tree have been broken off, while you, like shoots of wild-olive, have been grafted in, and don’t share like a natural branch the rich nourishment of the root, don’t let yourself feel superior to those former branches. (If you feel inclined that way, remind yourself that you do not support the root, the root supports you.) You may make the natural retort, “But the branches were broken off to make room for my grafting!” It wasn’t quite like that. They lost their position because they failed to believe; you only maintain yours because you do believe. The situation does not call for conceit but for a certain wholesome fear. If God removed the natural branches for a good reason, take care that you don’t give him the same reason for removing you.
22-24 You must try to appreciate both the kindness and the strict justice of God. Those who fell experienced his justice, while you are experiencing his kindness, and will continue to do so as long as you do not abuse that kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off from the tree. And as for the fallen branches, unless they are obstinate in their unbelief, they will be grafted in again. Such a restoration is by no means beyond the power of God. And, in any case, if you who were, so to speak, cuttings from a wild-olive, were grafted in, is it not a far simpler matter for the natural branches to be grafted back onto the parent stem?”
Don’t make too much of being placed in God’s family. Don’t presume upon God. The Jews did, and what happened?
“They lost their position because they failed to believe; you only maintain yours because you do believe. The situation does not call for conceit but for a certain wholesome fear.”
When one must chose between Paul and Calvin, follow Paul!
If you believe you can lose salvation because you sin willfully, you do not know what forgiveness is about.
We all sin willfully until the moment of death. Salvation covers our sins, period.
Christ died for all sinners, for all sin.
When you take into account all sins humans have committed, for all time, Christ was the sacrifice for them all. But, sin is sin. Period. You are a sinner as Hitler was a sinner.
The difference for the saved is their sin is now covered by the blood of Christ. All sin.
Salvation is being born again into the family of God. You cannot be unborn.
You can fail to thrive, but you cannot be unborn.
All of the scripture you reference where you think it is about loss of salvation are talking about eternal rewards.
Salvation is not a reward of your works, it is a gift and you must accept it. Your works are to go grow in Christ, become more Christlike here. And for your eternal rewards in Heaven.
“If you believe you can lose salvation because you sin willfully, you do not know what forgiveness is about....”
Please try to read paragraphs. I know what forgiveness is about. And if you read the commentary link, it would have explored it a bit further. But at the same time....scripture is scripture. When I quote it, you don’t get to say the writer of Hebrews does “not know what forgiveness is about”! As it says in the linked commentary:
“The word rendered “wilfully” occurs nowhere else in the New Testament, except in 1 Peter 5:2, where it is rendered “willingly”...It properly means, “willingly, voluntarily, of our own accord,” and applies to cases where no constraint is used.
It is not to be construed here strictly, or metaphysically, for all sin is voluntary, or is committed willingly, but must refer to a deliberate act, where a man means to abandon his religion, and to turn away from God. If it were to be taken with metaphysical exactness, it would demonstrate that every Christian who ever does anything wrong, no matter how small, would be lost.
But this cannot, from the nature of the case, be the meaning. The apostle well knew that Christians do commit such sins...and sins of presumption; sins that are deliberately and intentionally committed...The apostle here has reference, evidently, to such a distinction, and means to speak of a decided and deliberate purpose to break away from the restraints and obligations of the Christian religion.”
“All of the scripture you reference where you think it is about loss of salvation are talking about eternal rewards.”
Absolutely not! That is insane.
“Now if we sin deliberately after we have known and accepted the truth, there can be no further sacrifice for sin for us but only a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fire of God’s indignation, which will one day consume all that sets itself against him. The man who showed contempt for Moses’ Law died without hope of appeal on the evidence of two or three of his fellows. How much more dreadful a punishment will he be thought to deserve who has poured scorn on the Son of God, treated like dirt the blood of the agreement which had once made him holy, and insulted the very Spirit of grace? For we know the one who said: ‘Vengeance is mine: I will repay’. And again: ‘The Lord will judge his people’. Truly it is a terrible thing for a man who has done this to fall into the hands of the living God!”
That sooooooooooo obviously is not merely discussing a loss of eternal reward!
“no further sacrifice for sin for us but only a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fire of God’s indignation, which will one day consume all that sets itself against him” - THAT is what you say merely involves the loss of a reward?
PUT DOWN YOUR CALVIN GOGGLES! READ THE TEXT! IT MEANS WHAT IT SAYS!
John Calvin was not Jesus Christ! John Calvin is not higher than the Apostle Paul!
“You cannot be unborn.”
You keep repeating this as if it was scripture. It isn’t, and it is not true. You are born into this world, and death will take you from it. You most certainly CAN be “unborn”. It happens to everyone who dies!
And please stop pretending I’m saying salvation is earned and not a gift. NOTHING I’ve written even suggests that. You can accept a gift. You can reject a gift. And you can accept it and then later give it back. Choice.
“Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, 15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.” - Mark 1
He commanded all to “repent and believe”. Unless he was lying, he MEANT it. He does not make one person believe and deny belief to another. He offers salvation. He doesn’t impose it. He doesn’t limit the offer.
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.”
Whoever believes. Faith is not a “work”. It describes having belief. But what happens to those who stop believing?
“They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.” - Romans 11
When Calvin disagrees, you need to disagree with Calvin. It is Jesus we must cling to, not John Calvin!
Jesus said: You must be born again. Jesus said: eternal life and will not perish. There are no qualifiers in scripture after scripture.
Whosoever believes on him shall not perish.
Jesus said: You must be born again. Jesus said: eternal life and will not perish. There are no qualifiers in scripture after scripture.
Whosoever believes on him shall not perish.
“Jesus said: You must be born again. Jesus said: eternal life and will not perish.”
OF COURSE! “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.”
WHOEVER believes - another item Calvin rejected.
Now...what about those who make a conscious decision to STOP believing? Who decide, having tasted the heavenly gift, to reject and renounce?
“For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened,
who have tasted the heavenly gift,
and have shared in the Holy Spirit,
and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come,
and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt...But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.”
That is a very clear & direct teaching.
You may reject the Word of God. That is your life to live.
You have to rely on one misinterpreted passage to defend your position, when again, your misinterpretation of that passage is blinding you to the rest of the Word of God.
It is a shame that you are living in fear of losing your salvation and rejecting the freedom that Christ granted you with His sacrifice so that you could focus on becoming more Christlike and being freed from the law. He fulfilled the law for all, once.
“You may reject the Word of God. That is your life to live.”
Dude, I’m QUOTING it. At length. You rely on one passage: “I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one will snatch them out of my hand.” - John 10:28
As I’ve pointed out, it simply does not say what you want it to say. It says plainly that no one can forcibly take you out of God’s hand, but we are discussing if someone can CHOOSE to leave. A very different thing!
The rest of the scripture is consistent, too: we are to cling to God, persevering in faith. It certainly is not just Hebrews 6 that says some will choose to leave. The danger of not persevering to the end is taught in many passages. Jesus taught it:
“Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13 And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away. 14 And as for what fell among the thorns, they are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of life, and their fruit does not mature. 15 As for that in the good soil, they are those who, hearing the word, hold it fast in an honest and good heart, and bear fruit with patience.” - Luke 8
4 soils.
1 - Some hear, but never quite believe: “so that they may not believe and be saved.”
2 - Some believe for a while, but fall away: “they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away.”
3 - Some believe, but are unfruitful because they get caught up in the attractions of the world: “choked by the cares...and their fruit does not mature”. Been there, done that myself. Far too often! This type does not lose their salvation, but they are not fruitful!
4 - Some believe, hold fast and stay focused: “hold it fast in an honest and good heart, and bear fruit with patience.”
But any honest review of the parable cannot avoid category 2: “when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away.”
It happens. From the mouth of Jesus instead of Calvin. Calvin, influenced by Augustine, missed a lot of the scripture, or twisted it to make scripture match his theory of God instead of letting scripture SHAPE his idea of God.
Nothing I’ve written is about obeying the law. NOTHING! I’ve written NOTHING suggesting we earn our salvation. But we ARE told we must keep believing. “They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear....continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.”
Oh wait, you can say I am denying what the word of God says, but when I say it I am losing an argument, please.
Again, you must be born again to enter the kingdom of Heaven.
Get back to me when you can use more than one misinterpreted passage about how you are unborn.
They are broken off from fellowship with God. They do not lose salvation, they lose their communion.
It is too bad you are bound to fear.
“They are broken off from fellowship with God. They do not lose salvation, they lose their communion.”
Hmmmm....”there can be no further sacrifice for sin for us but only a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fire of God’s indignation, which will one day consume all that sets itself against him. The man who showed contempt for Moses’ Law died without hope of appeal on the evidence of two or three of his fellows. How much more dreadful a punishment will he be thought to deserve who has poured scorn on the Son of God, treated like dirt the blood of the agreement which had once made him holy, and insulted the very Spirit of grace?”
I think that goes beyond “broken communion”!
“It is too bad you are bound to fear.”
“The Bible repeatedly calls people to fear God. In Psalm 111:10 the psalmist declared that “the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom” (cf. Prov. 1:7; 9:10), while Proverbs 23:17 commands, “Live in the fear of the Lord always.” A wise father counsels his son to “fear the Lord and the king” (Prov. 24:21), while Peter exhorted his readers to “Honor all people, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king” (1 Pet. 2:17). In Matthew 10:28 Jesus warned, “Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” To fear God is to live in the reality of His holiness, His sovereignty, and His judgment of sin. It is to love God, respect Him, reverence Him, adore Him, hold Him in awe, and worship Him. And that can only be done by loving His Son the Savior (John 5:23).”
https://www.gty.org/library/bibleqnas-library/QA0058/fear-god-with-all-your-heart
“The response of a true worshiper to a vision of God should resemble Isaiah’s. We should be overwhelmed with our own sinfulness and consequently consumed with a sense of holy terror. I am certain that if the people today who claim to have seen God really saw Him, they wouldn’t be lining up to get on the latest Christian talk show; they’d be lying prostrate on the ground, grieving over their sin.
Reverence and Godly Fear
A true worshiper comes into the presence of God with a healthy but soul-shattering fear. God does, after all, punish sin, even in those who are redeemed. Hebrews 12:6 reminds us, “Whom the Lord loves He disciplines, and He scourges every son whom He receives.”
Hebrews 12:28 goes on to say, “Let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear” (KJV). The word translated “serve” is latreuo, a word for worship. The writer is talking about acceptable worship, and he lists two key elements: “reverence and godly fear.” Note the reason he gives for such worship: “For our God is a consuming fire” (Hebrews 12:29).”
https://www.gty.org/library/blog/B160810/whatever-happened-to-the-fear-of-god
“Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” True enough; they were broken off by unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you either. Therefore, consider God’s kindness and severity: severity toward those who have fallen but God’s kindness toward you—if you remain in His kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. And even they, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, because God has the power to graft them in again.”
The Jews boasted of being God’s Chosen People. But “they were broken off by unbelief”. It always returns to believing God. Once saved, always saved didn’t apply to God’s Chosen People, nor to us. Not if we quit believing.
Nothing to do with earning God’s approval by our good deeds. If we understood the holiness of God, we would never presume it was possible! It has nothing to do with us being good enough to merit God’s approval. But we are required to KEEP believing.
They did not repent. It says it right there in the passage that you sent.
He's half-a-fag.
He’s got Issues,
Who doesn’t.
You cannot get obtain or keep salvation through works, why their works were not good enough. You have to repent and accept Jesus as your savior.
If you doubt your salvation , fear you will lose your salvation, worry you are not doing enough, you are sinning. Doubt, fear, and worry are sins.
Whosoever should believe on him, not keep believing on him, but once believe on him, shall have eternal life. What you should to do with that gift will result in eternal rewards.
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