Posted on 04/28/2019 2:51:32 PM PDT by OddLane
An exploration of the doctrine of the Church of Latter day Saints by Tim Conway.
Not tonight, Dear.
HELL: A place of torment from which the worst of sinners are resurrected (if they repent) into the Telestial kingdom; only a limited number remain in hell forever, - the devil and the demons and apostates who consciously reject and work against Mormonism.
Mormonism has taught that those in the Telestial kingdom will have paid for their own sins in spirit prison, a temporary hell which serves as a place of purging before entrance into heaven (cf. D&C 138: 58-59).
Orson F. Whitney preached:
"But those who reject the Gospel altogether and are besotted and crimestained---what of them? It is written that they will be thrust down to hell; even the murderer, the liar, the sorcerer, and the whoremonger. They will, in short, be damned. But they will only be damned to the extent justified by their sins. Even for them there is hope, after they have 'paid the uttermost farthing.' They will be punished, as all men must be, for neglect of duty, for transgression of the laws of God; but after they have been punished sufficiently, they will be brought forth and saved in a glory of which the stars in heaven are typical." ("The Three Great Teachers", May 8, 1898; Brian H. Stuy, ed., Collected Discourses 1886-1898, v. 5)
Chapter 41 of the 2009 Gospel Principles manual quotes D&C 19 and concurs the same:
"Also in the spirit prison are those who rejected the gospel after it was preached to them on earth or in the spirit prison. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell. They have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ, who said, 'Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit' (D&C 19:16-18). After suffering in full for their sins, they will be allowed, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the telestial kingdom" (Gospel Principles, 2009, p. 244).
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"Now, it may be contended that a judgment, with some degree of salvation for all, encourages the sinner to pursue his dark ways. Not so. However generous the judgment, it is measured by our works. Our punishment will be the heavy regret that we might have received a greater reward, a higher kingdom, had our lives conformed more nearly to truth. Such remorse may yield keener pain than physical torture." (Understandable Religion, p. 89)
While Widtsoe is careful not to call a heavenly kingdom "hell", he is nonetheless certain that there will be a keen regret for lost opportunities:
"Humanity will be grouped according to their works in three main divisions: Celestial (like the sun), Telestial (like the moon), Terrestrial (like the earth). Within each group there will be many gradations and divisions, until from the lowest to the highest in all groups there will be a series of gradually ascending glories. There can be no talk of a hell, except for the few 'sons of Perdition,' but undoubtedly the regret for lost opportunities will be keen among those in the lower degrees of glory." (Program of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, p. 226)
Joseph Fielding Smith, on the other hand, considers the tormenting regret experienced in the bottom two heavenly kingdoms and concludes "in that sense it will be hell":
"This earth will become a celestial kingdom when it is sanctified. Those who enter the terrestrial kingdom will have to go to some other sphere which will be prepared for them. Those who enter the telestial kingdom, likewise will have to go to some earth which is prepared for them, and there will be another place which is hell where the devil and those who are punished to go with him will dwell. Of course, those who enter the telestial kingdom, and those who enter the terrestrial kingdom will have the eternal punishment which will come to them in knowing that they might, if they had kept the commandments of the Lord, have returned to his presence as his sons and his daughters. This will be a torment to them, and in that sense it will be hell." (Answers to Gospel Questions, v. 2, p. 210)
This line of thinking is interesting in light of Joseph Smith's following teaching:
"A man is his own tormenter and his own condemner. Hence the saying, They shall go into the lake that burns with fire and brimstone. The torment of disappointment in the mind of man is as exquisite as a lake burning with fire and brimstone" (TPJS, p. 357)
The entry in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism on "Damnation" essentially explains that the bottom two kingdoms of heaven are kingdoms of damnation:
"Just as there are varying degrees and types of salvation, coupled with eternal progression in some areas (D&C 76:96-98; 131:1-4), so are there varying degrees and types of damnation. In LDS doctrine, to be damned means to be stopped, blocked, or limited in one's progress. Individuals are damned whenever they are prevented from reaching their full potential as children of God. Damnation is falling short of what one might have enjoyed if one had received and been faithful to the whole law of the gospel. In this sense, all who do not achieve the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom are damned, even though they are saved in some degree of glory."
It appears teppe left.
It’s not a growing problem.
It’s a going problem...
The kitchen WAS mighty hot.
6 ... Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger.
7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.”
8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there.
10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”
11 “No one, sir,” she said.
“Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”
I think we’ve identified your problem, so allow me to clarify. You do not believe in hell as a reality, so does that mean you doubt Heaven also?
I believe in Eternity, and that we humans are inseparable from the Eternal Life - and growth! - of the Universe, in our deepest, essential aspect.
There are probably many different “schools” along the endless way; and they will all be fascinating and exciting.
(I haven’t much interest in sitting on a cloud, strumming a harp, and being eternally unchallenged, just because I’ve managed to dot the ‘i’s and cross the ‘t’s in one small, narrow lifetime.)
I’ll take the narrow lifetine if you don’t want it.
I’ll leave the broad one up for grabs.
I like broad.
You can’t learn enough, on any level, by just being here for this little bit of constructed ‘time’.
I think it’s silly to believe that God is going to somehow initiate us into all understanding, before we’ve paid the price in experience and learning.
Some people think that all God wants are worshipers.
I think God wants co-workers - and you need a pretty long CV for that.
And what foolishness tells yo this floating on a cloud silliness? There are literally trillions of stars and even more planets in God's Created Universe, and dimensional variables you have not a clue over, so what makes you imagine We Christians are going to spend eternity in idleness? Shucks, the Bride gets to work right at the end of the Tribulation, for the next thousand years, before the new heaven and earth are even kneaded up!
Oh?
Looks like He used some pretty UNeducated folks as apostles.
He don’t send too many equipped; but He does equip those who get sent.
I’m not speaking of education or sophistication - mere data and information; but a different kind of understanding that can only come from experience of the heart.
You seem to understand; but I think a lot of Christians have only the vaguest, if any, notion of what they really mean by ‘heaven’
This poster named “teppe” never came back to try to answer the questions/issues I raised with what they wrote. Here were 2 of the glaring problems I saw.
1. They tried to dishonestly dismiss the lack of any present-day Lehi descendants with this claim “Lehi’s decendents were killed in a battle in 420 AD, as told in the Book of Mormon” which they must know to be a very dishonest and misleading answer.
2. They gave this “NHM” baloney claim that is very far-fetched and then made other claims about Bountiful, Valley of Laman, and claim of Mesoamerican history being rewritten by archeologists closer and closer to the Book of Mormon all of the time.
We can and should forgive them for being dishonest and misleading if they seriously try to repent. But if they refuse to admit their mistakes then shame on them. I also know that if any of my siblings, and I have 10 of them that are true believing Mormons, read this thread that they will be sad about me being so vocal. Instead of being “sad” I would hope they would be resolved to encourage their fellow Church members to be honest. The dishonesty of many Church members in Mormonism is very harmful to their reputations and to their cause.
MORMON
ATTITUDES OF SUPERIORITY
1. I’m Superior; I have a special gift of the holy Ghost -- you don’t!
2. I’m Superior; I have God’s true priesthood power -- you don’t!
3. I’m Superior; I can go in God’s secret Temple -- you can’t!
4. I’m Superior; I’ve been Endowed with special Gifts and Knowledge -- you’re just normal!
5. I’m Superior; I’ll have my family with me in heaven -- you’ll be with strangers!
6. I’m Superior; I’m becoming a God -- you aren’t!
7. I’m Superior; My women know their place as servants of man and yours don’t.
8. I’m Superior; YOUR creeds are wrong because they come from man - mine comes from God (you can find each one printed in our Scriptures).
9. I’m Superior; I don’t HAVE a creed - I’ve got 13 Articles of Faith.
10. I'm Superior; I have 4 "Bibles"-- the standard works (5 if you count the JST) -- you've only got one: in as far as it is translated correctly.
11. I’m Superior; I can lie with impunity about such things as church membership, church growth, church doctrine, church history, church influence, etc. — -- You can’t.
12. I’m Superior; I am right (everybody knows) when I say 'evangelical' Christians are lunatics -- -- You’re a hideous narrow-minded bigot, who is persecuting me by practicing discrimination by saying I'm not a Christian.
13. I'm Superior; I have a testimony about a prophet -- you don't.
14. I'm Superior; I have a Scripture-producing Amos 3:7 prophet -- you don't
15. I’m Superior; I have a Living Prophet who talks to god every day -- you have a dim-witted hireling of Satan who only talks to himself.
16. I'm Superior; I have my calling & election made sure -- you don't.
17. I’m Superior; I have magic underwear to protect me from the bogey man -- you don’t.
18. I’m Superior; I have secret clasps and grips to give the angel so I get admitted to the celestial kingdom -- you don’t ;so you can’t.
19. I'm Superior; I know secret handshake codes for afterlife entrances-- you don't.
20. I’m Superior; I will see Joseph Smith setting on the right hand of GOD, when I get to Mormon heaven, and he will recognize me and judge me favorably -- You’re on your own; when you get to wherever you’re going!
21. I’m Superior; I’m going to hie to Kolob -- you’re going to who knows where.
22. I’m Superior; I get to have a harem and act like a celestial stud for time and all eternity -- you don’t.
23. I’m Superior; I have sun stones, moon stones, sky stones, cloud stones, Saturn stones, and the evil eye of Osirus guarding my temple -- You have nothing but a stupid cross.
24. I’m Superior; My church has billions in assets stashed away -- yours has taken a stupid vow of poverty.
25. I'm Superior; Last - we have the power to keep a whole race out of our priesthood if we wanted to reinsert our 148-year legacy (we ARE still keeping an entire GENDER at bay!)26. I'm superior; I have the "higher law" -- everyone else "lives under the "lesser law' because I say so...(over and over).
Revision 46.5
Semi-Official creed of the EXclusive club of Freeper Flying Inmans.
All rights liable to be abused.
After driving halfway across the state to hear him; he didn’t show.
https://www.wabash.edu/news/displaystory.cfm?news_ID=7431
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