Christian, What Do You Believe? Probably a Heresy About Jesus, Says Survey

Christianity Today ^ | 10/23/2018 | Jeremy Webber

[SeekAndFind]

American evangelicals are “deeply confused” about some core doctrines of the Christian faith—and the fourth-century heretic Arius would be pleased, according to a new survey.

For the third time, Ligonier Ministries has examined the State of Theology in the United States, conducted by LifeWay Research and based on interviews with 3,000 Americans. The survey, also conducted in 2014 and 2016, offers a detailed look at the favorite heresies of evangelicals and of Americans at large.

Ligonier wanted to know what Americans “believe about God, salvation, ethics, and the Bible.”

“Overall, US adults appear to have a superficial attachment to well-known Christian beliefs,” stated the ministry. “For example, a majority agreed that Jesus died on the cross for sin and that he rose from the dead.

“However, they rejected the Bible’s teaching on (1) the gravity of man’s sin, (2) the importance of the church’s gathering together for worship, and (3) the Holy Spirit,” stated Ligonier. For example:

• More than two-thirds (69%) of Americans disagree that the smallest sin deserves eternal damnation—and 58 percent strongly disagree. Ligonier finds this “alarming.”
• A majority of US adults (58%) said that worshiping alone or with one’s family is a valid replacement for regularly attending church. Only 30 percent disagree.
• A majority of US adults (59%) say that the Holy Spirit is a force, not a personal being.

Ligonier cites relativism for such a “casual outlook.” In the survey, 6 in 10 Americans agree that “religious belief is a matter of personal opinion [and] not about objective truth”—and 1 in 3 evangelicals (32%) say the same.

[kosciusko51]

The Trinity summarized in one diagram:

[caww]

But who is He to you as a Christian....how would you define that relationship if not in the vein of personhood, that is if it is personal..... A lot of people believe in God, even pray to him but they do not know him personally.

You said you “believe we can have a relationship with God with God being God.... but what does that mean?

[ConservativeMind]

Laz, I am honored and, sir, I love you, too.

How are you doing?

[ebb tide]

(On most Sundays, the following
PREFACE is said)

P:
It is truly fitting and just, proper and
beneficial, that we should always and
everywhere, give thanks unto Thee,
holy Lord, Father almighty, everlasting
God; Who, with Thine only-begotten
Son, and the Holy Spirit, art one God,
one Lord; not in the singularity of one
person, but in the Trinity of one
substance. For what we believe from
Thy revelation of Thy glory, the same
we believe of Thy Son, the same of the
Holy Spirit, without difference or
distinction. So that in confessing the
true and everlasting Deity, particularity
in persons, unity in essence, and
equality in majesty may be adored.
Which the Angels and Archangels, the
Cherubim, too, and the Seraphim do
praise: who cease not to cry out daily,
with one voice saying:

[ConservativeMind]

Caww, people can’t speak to my heart. God and the Holy Spirit can speak to us with being people. I can speak to directly to God through Christ. I look at His Creation and know He is there. I do not need to put God into a non-Scriptural box of my choosing and call Him a person or He and the Holy Spirit as people I know and can talk with.

I just don’t understand what is so hard to grasp. The Bible completely supports my interpretation, while your stance has no Scriptural support. So tell us how you justify an extra-Scriptural view of God, Christ, and the Holy Ghost.

[caww]

You;ve stated.....”I do not consider my spirit or my soul to be people.....I consider those to be a “spirit” or a “soul,” respectively.”.....

But they are still a part of your personhood, as an individual having human characteristics and feelings.... You cannot be just a body without those parts of yourself or you’d be just a dead body. We’re not speaking here of ‘people’ in the sense of what you’re trying to equate.....which is collective respectfully.

[ConservativeMind]

The Bible does not consider one’s soul or one’s spirit to be “people.”

Nor, therefore, do I.

[caww]

You ask....how I would justify my view of God, Christ, and the Holy Ghost.....

OK....

Well..When Jesus was 'physically' on earth He had asked people to believe in Him and follow. Jesus said to His disciples that He was going to leave and go back to where He came from, Heaven as is written....in John 3:13; 6:38.....But He would not leave us without a Helper; he called Him 'the comforter', (another like himself).

Further... written In Jn.14:16 ...Jesus says to the disciples,... “And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you 'another' Comforter, that 'HE' may abide with you for ever.”.....further.... John 16:13-14 tells us....“ when 'HE', the Spirit of truth, has come, 'HE' will guide you into all truth; for 'HE' will not 'speak' on His own authority, but whatever 'HE" 'hears' 'HE' will speak; and "HE' will 'tell you' things to come.... “He' will glorify Me, for 'HE' will 'take of what is Mine and declare it to you.”

This is activily engaged with the believer.... The Spirit 'hears' things from Jesus; this is a 'person-al communication' (in the same manner as Christ did with the Father in John 3.32; 7.16, 8.38, 12.49),.. and the Spirit delivers it to man which is 'also person-al active communication'. The main way is through the Scriptures.

Then you consider that the Holy Spirit is the 'executor of God’s nature'..... He is the source of the new birth and 'brings out 'the nature of Christ' in the individual believer'..... He conforms us to the nature of Jesus, who is God as well as 'the ultimate human'...... He reveals the nature of God by 'transforming believers to be like him'.... His indwelling 'restores the image of God in man' that became damaged by the fall, now we can reflect God’s moral qualities and characteristics as He intended. All these qualities are reflective of Jesus Christ who was seen in the 'flesh'.

Eph 1:13... “In Him"..... you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were 'sealed' with the Holy Spirit of promise.”

> 1 Cor. 12:13-14 “For by 'one Spirit' we were all baptized into 'one body' whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free-- and have all been made to drink into 'one Spirit'. For in fact the body is not one member but many.” We are put in 'the spiritual body of Christ' (the church) and we partake of the Holy Spirit who now resides in us, 'literally'.

Rom 8:9 “But you are not in the flesh 'but in the Spirit', if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.”

[Salvation]

A lot of heresies in that article. I wasn’t aware of so many fallings away from the truth of the Bible. (The unchanged Bible, that is.)

[caww]

I don’t think anyone is saying the Triune God nor Trinity is “people” or why you would think that.....which is not personhood. I thought that was clarified and the difference.

[rusty schucklefurd]

Re: “I just don’t understand what is so hard to grasp. The Bible completely supports my interpretation, while your stance has no Scriptural support. So tell us how you justify an extra-Scriptural view of God, Christ, and the Holy Ghost.“

Okay. You’ve completely lost me now. I just got home a little bit ago and I’ve been reading all the posts back and forth, and, I thought for a minute that I understood what you were saying.

But, with what you said to caww above, I’m now not so sure.

I thought you objected the term “person” in reference to the Holy Spirit because you thought the typical dictionary definition of the word “person” has to refer to a human being. Therefore, in your mind that diminishes who God is. Also, you said the word “person” in reference to God is never used in the Bible.

I was willing to meet you halfway and agree that using the word “person” is somewhat a diminishment of all that God is. But, so would the term, “being” that you used earlier. In fact, any human word used to describe God is not going to capture all that God is.

The point is, the terms “Father”, “Son”, “being”, or “person” are all human metaphors for God - none of them quantify all that God is. But, they are useful to us human beings in trying to grasp a little of who God is.

I thought we we’re all agreeing that God has autonomy, has character, has a will, loves, forgives, can communicate, reasons - all these attributes are what make God, and us, individuals - beings.

That is in fact what theologians mean when they use the word “person” in reference to God - they don’t mean He is a human being - they just mean that the Holy Spirit is a person in the sense of autonomy, will, communicate, etc.

But, if using the word “person” bothers you and you would rather use “being” - great - I can get with you on that.

Now, though, I’m not sure at all what you’re saying. Other than using the word “person” rather than “being” - what caww saying that is so “non-Biblical”?

[ConservativeMind]

A “being” is an entity of some sort without required shape or form. There is one sort of being we are, which is “human.” Human beings have shape and form. Calling God and the Holy Ghost people is just not supported in Scripture. To be fair, calling God a “being” is not mentioned in the Bible either, but I can’t seem to help caww understand it is best to call God “God” and the Holy Ghost “like a ghost.”

To call God and the Holy Ghost “people” is, frankly, demeaning to them. I can’t call my pets people, but I can call FReepers and God, people? I don’t think so.

[Data Miner]

The concept of personhood is fundamental to the formulation of the Holy Trinity- God is one being in three persons. This is foundational to orthodox Christianity and was defined at the council of Nicea to combat heresies circulating at the time that denied the divinity of Jesus.

The philosophical concept of personhood is Greek and not Hebrew so it is not “biblical” per say but is used as a way to understand and communicate what the Bible says. To say the that the Holy Spirit is not a person is to disagree with nearly 1700 years of Christian theology.

[ConservativeMind]

We give a name to the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. We, not the Bible, call that threesome the “Trinity.”

Calling them “people” is a much newer construct, also not of the Bible.

Not calling them “people” is not heresy or disrespect. It is heresy or disrespect to call them something Scripture does not support.

[kosciusko51]

Do you agree with the summary of the Trinity shown in post #101 above?

[Iscool]

Our souls are not “people.” They are “souls,” as in “ConservativeMind’s soul.”

So when your decaying body falls off your 'soul', you will no longer be a person???

But you are correct, souls are not people, but they are persons...

[dartuser]

You're joking right?

It would be a waste of my time unless certain starting points are established. For example, what are your definitions of personal attributes? What are the key aspects of personhood?

Unless we agree on those, there is no point in pursuing this.

I'm curious ... what IS the Holy Spirit if He is not a person?

[dartuser]

That is not a “person.” That is a Spirit.

So by your logic, God the Father is not a person either ... possessing the defining attributes of a personal being ... even though there are a huge array of passages in the text of scripture that show God the Father has a mind, a will, has emotions, and interacts with human beings through language.

A second epic fail ...

[Iscool]

Now how the ONE can also be the 3...well that’s beyond my paygrade and where Faith comes in. But with GOD all things are possible....Who knows there may be even more manifestations that we aren’t privy to because HE decided it wasn’t necessary to tell us and we couldn’t begin to comprehend anyway.

It's not all that big a mystery...God provides the information...It's up to us to believe it, or not...

Gen_1:26 And God (singular) said, Let us (plural) make man (singular) in our (plural) image, after our (plural) likeness: and let them (plural) have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

God refers to himself as more than one and describes a man as plural...And the bible tells us what that plurality is...

1Th_5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Since when we look into the mirror we see only our body, we don't recognize there are two more of us included in the picture...

Bible tells us when we die or body will fall and decay until it is resurrected into a new, celestial body...Our spirit and soul however will continue to live...And that is what happened to Jesus when he died...His body was removed from the rest of him and his body was transfigured...

A search of the scriptures will reveal that the Holy Spirit, Jesus and God are each called the Lord at some point...Yet there is One Lord...The bible tells us that God was the creator but at the same time in another place tells us Jesus was the creator...

Jesus says in the book of Revelation that HE is the beginning of everything and the end of everything...

Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Jesus is our Father in heaven...Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit are all the same person...They all sit on the same, one, Throne of God...But being celestial bodies they are able to separate and be three individual persons...At the time of judgement they are all back together as one person...GOD...

NOTES:

Rev_22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

The river of the water of life flows out from the lamb (Jesus) and the throne of God, because Jesus sits on the throne of God...

Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

One throne or two???

Which throne will the servants serve??? Who is him??? One Throne where Jesus and God are both seated together...

[Iscool]

Your diagram is false...