Posted on 08/18/2018 10:09:46 AM PDT by Salvation
The Bible and the Church never praise lying, even when there are good intentions behind the act Msgr. Charles Pope
Is lying always wrong?
Question: We are told not to lie, but the Bible says Rahab the prostitute lied to protect the Jewish spies. The Bible later praises her as being justified for doing this. Does Scripture praise lying, which is a sin? — Tamarah E. Jones, La Plata, Maryland
Answer: No. We should be careful to recall that the Bible records many things that are not praiseworthy. There are murders, rapes, theft, polygamy, adultery and the like. The mere reporting of these behaviors is not approval of them. In many cases, such behavior becomes an object lesson to illustrate what happens when such bad behavior ensues. In other cases, the sinful behavior simply goes unremarked. But silence is not the same as approval.
It is true that Rahab lied. Here is the account of it: “So the king of Jericho sent Rahab the order, ‘Bring out the men who have come to you and entered your house, for they have come to spy out the entire land.’ The woman had taken the two men and hidden them, so she said, ‘True, the men you speak of came to me, but I did not know where they came from. At dark, when it was time to close the gate, they left, and I do not know where they went’” (Jos 2:3-5).
The incident is simply recorded. And while the two Hebrew spies benefit from her lie and even promise her reward for her protection, there is no explicit praise in the text for the lie itself.
Later in the Scriptures there is praise of Rahab, but there is no mention of her lie, only her act of receiving the spies and sending them out by a protected way. Here are those texts: “By faith Rahab the harlot did not perish with the disobedient, for she had received the spies in peace” (Heb 11:31). “And in the same way was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?” (Jas 2:25).
Hence we should be careful not to say that the Scriptures affirm lying in this matter. There is a care in the sacred text to focus the praise on her overall benevolence, not the lie. St. Augustine affirms this stance: “That therefore which was rewarded in them was, not [her] deceit, but [her] benevolence; benignity of mind, not iniquity of lying” (“To Consentius, Against Lying,” 32).
(((Sigh))) “Oh, Baloney Sandwich” is something my husband and I say to each other all the time.
It’s not intended as an act of aggression.
if you can accept an expression of good will at face value. Peace be with you.
To myself I say — Tagline -—
Lots of waiting around in the military.
Actually, while all sin is sin, and is mortal in the sense that one sin will send one to Hell apart from saving faith in the Lord Jesus. and whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all" in the sense that he is "a transgressor of the law," (Jas 2:10,11) yet just as there are "weightier matters of the law." (Matthew 23:23) so also there some sins are weightier than others.
Thus there are different penalties for sins, and not all sins are capital offenses in this life, while there are different degrees of punishment in the next.
An adulterer is to be executed under the Law, (Deuteronomy 22:22) while using another man’s field to feed your animal meant you had to make full restitution. (Exodus 22:5)
Likewise, in this life there is a sin unto death, versus being delivered from it. (1 John 5:15-17)
In addition, in the final judgment, besides being damned due to rejection of Christ, the dead will be "judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." (Revelation 20:12)
And in judgment there are different degrees of guilt, relative to the light and grace on is given, which determines the degree of punishment.
And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. (Luke 12:47-48)
Therefore. those who received greater blessings of light and grace are more accountable for sins:
And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee. (Matthew 11:23-24)
Thus we see that whileany and all sins are spiritually mortal in the sense that "the wages of sin is death," (Romans 6:23) yet there different degrees of wickedness and punishment, which is also relative to the light and grace given. And with believers being the most accountable. (Hebrews 10:19-39)
No, a third viable alternative to achieving the same end is not always available. Rahab was not a Samson, and silence would have raised suspicions, warranting a search and the captivity of the spies, and if found, likely death. .
And i do not think pope is a Samson either.
Nikki Glaser: “If a woman ever tells you that your ‘just perfect,’ you’re below average to small, sorry about that.”
Some can see it, but remember that for Catholics, Scripture is not the sure standard they are to follow, but church teaching is supreme, and Scripture can be an abused servant which is compelled to support Rome by wresting it.
Yes, there is. I was in the USAF 20 years my self. I learned early on, what hurry up and wait means. Not much has changed.
A Catholic does not need to keep a priest right by their side. From the Baltimore Catechism:
403. How can a person in mortal sin regain the state of grace before receiving the sacrament of Penance?
A person in mortal sin can regain the state of grace before receiving the sacrament of Penance by making an act of perfect contrition with the sincere purpose of going to confession.
404. What should we do if we have the misfortune to commit a mortal sin?
If we have the misfortune to commit a mortal sin, we should ask God’s pardon and grace at once, make an act of perfect contrition, and go to confession as soon as we can.
In other words....New Testament Christianity.
It is what Christians have believed based on what John wrote......9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9 NASB
We can appeal straight to Christ for the forgiveness of our sins and expect He will forgive us of our sins.
Ha! Fortunately, I’ve never hard that line before ! Smile smile
So you agree that a Catholic will “receive their forgiveness” before going to a priest?
So you agree that a Catholic will “receive their forgiveness” before going to a priest?
Thank you for your response. Can you anticipate the answer to your points? Will he agree that the third alternative is not always available? Can you anticipate the answer to the point that Rahab was no Samson?
I always fear getting involved in "a striving of words to no profit," so please don't let me waste your time. I did study ethics; I have taught ethics at church, and I would want to share in your interest in the subject if you are so inclined.
Do you know the technical name for your own ethics dilemma position? There are several ways to arrive at the conclusions you have stated here, but most people will shy away from letting their position be categorized. You at this point have concluded the conversation. There is really nothing left for Msgr. Pope to say and you are still left unconvinced. He may not even understand the objections that you raise.
As a working pastor/counselor, the temptation in the work is to oversimplify, especially when working with someone who does not really want to do right. I cannot remember when I might have counseled a real person who really wanted to do what was right and who also really needed my help knowing what that would be. They usually have made up their minds and want me to help get their family to excuse what they are gonna do anyway.
But we are not under the law, we are under grace. God saves us not by our deeds but what Christ has done for us. And Rahab, like us, was saved by God's grace-not by her deeds. Otherwise, Rahab the HARLOT would have had far more issues than a simple lie to deal with. While all her fellow countrymen heard about Israel and wanted to fight them, she wanted to join with the living God. Her lie was covered by the blood of the Lamb.
There is no reason to complain about Rahab's lie as she was unschooled in God's commandments. Think of it more like a young Christian often does things that a more mature Christian would not.
Every situation is different but if Christ could go through the world without sin, and we are to imitate Christ, what should that tell us?
Christ went through the world without sin because He is God.
He fulfilled the law perfectly because no one else could.
We are not to imitate Him, but to allow Him to live His life through us.
And God told Moses to lie to pharoah. Moses told him that God wants his people to go out into the desert for a three-day festival. (Not that they are leaving for good.}
And just prior, God tells Moses to have all of the people “borrow” some jewelry from an Egyption, so when they do flee, they will have plundered them. Sounds a lot like stealing. Although with the word “plunder” - it sounds more like a war against the enemy, so then it is not stealing?
Note that i did not say there was no third alternative, but not viable third alternative (as morally justified). In every trial there is an alternative to obeying God out of faith. Job could have killed himself. But enduring the trial was the only viable moral alternative.
Rahab could have been silent, or attempted to run or fight, or told the truth, but unless she had faith to believe God would blind the eyes of the search party, there was only viable moral alternative let to her in order to save the lives of the men of God, fulfilling the intent of the Law in this context.
Heb 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.
We are not to imitate Him, but to allow Him to live His life through us.
Three chaplains at a military base played poker once a week, and a constant topic during play was whether it was ever permissible to lie. Two chaplains insisted it was sometimes OK to lie, but the third stubbornly insisted it was never OK.
A new commander took over and forbade poker on the base, but the chaplains continued their friendly weekly game. During one game, the CO barged in as the three scrambled to cover the game.
He asked the first two chaplains if they were playing poker and they insisted they were not. He asked the third chaplain, who just looked puzzled and said, “With who?”
Is quibbling, hedging, evading, "white" lying always wrong?
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