[Catholic Caucus] On Capital Punishment

The Catholic Thing ^ | August 3, 2018 | David Warren

[ebb tide]

While writing this column, on another topic, I was distracted by a friend. He had me look at the news for “the latest” from Pope Francis. I was told he had changed Church teaching on the death penalty, by an amendment to the Catechism. Quickly checking the usual Internet sites, I found this rumor confirmed in many places. While I do not trust “the meejah,” generally, I fear in this instance the reports are true.

Moreover, I was expecting this to happen. The “new teaching” had been signaled by the Holy Father many times. He has also, incidentally, signaled his opposition to life imprisonment, on the same grounds, as an affront to human dignity, and an impediment to redemption.

I am no Vaticanist, and thus no expert to predict whether this will be his only formal alteration of the Catechism, or the first in a series. It provides a precedent that future popes may work with, alas. Bergoglio has broken the lock on the door, but I think he takes a longer view of his action.

[ebb tide]

Christ did not teach for his place and time. He taught for all places and all times. If we acknowledge that He was and remains “very God of very God” (et cetera), we acknowledge that He had the power to foresee all exigencies. He taught nothing that would need to be “updated.”

[vladimir998]

I realize you’re wallpapering again because you lost yet another debate, but you could at least list the source in your comment like an adult. Try.

Here, I’ll do this one for you: https://catholiccitizens.org/news/80306/on-capital-punishment/

[ebb tide]

The source is the linked, excerpted, article.

Try reading one for once before putting your foot in your mouth.

[nobamanomore]

I think a lot of people are getting carried away with this. The catechism has always stated it this way “if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor”

With the security of prisons today, I’m somewhat doubtful if capital punishment is the ‘only possible way’.

I’m more of a proponent of capital punishment, but according to the Catechism, it’s hard to argue that we dont’ need it anymore.

[kaktuskid]

Two ways to take care of murderers...lobotomize, sterilize.

[ebb tide]

The catechisms have not always said that.

There was a Catholic Church before the Second Vatican Council.

Some people seem to ignore or discount that.

[BobL]

Hey, if that ‘church’ into open borders, then what the hell, have a killer apologize and send him out on to the street to kill some more. What the heck - really no difference. Right?

[ebb tide]

With the security of prisons today, I’m somewhat doubtful if capital punishment is the ‘only possible way’.

Killers who go on to kill again under spotlight

Remember now, Bergoglio, is also against life imprisonment.

[Jeff Chandler]

if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor”

That was JPII unilaterally changing scriptural, traditional Church teaching, but in a slicker way than Francis.

But remember, now that those popes changed Catholic teaching to fit their opinions, future popes can change whatever teaching they want.

[scouter]

With the security of prisons today, I’m somewhat doubtful if capital punishment is the ‘only possible way’.

I have two cousins who are prison guards. One of them had to be removed from contact with the prisoners because a contract had been put out on him. Modern prisons do nothing to adequately protect the guards and other prison staff, let alone other prisoners, who also have the right to life.

A pope can't change doctrine. He can try, but he can't succeed. It is what it is, and it will always remain so, no matter how long he pounds his fist or stamps his feet or curses those who don't give him the adoration he desires.

What a pope can do (and ought to do) is to help us understand how to apply the doctrine to today's particular circumstances. But the charism of infallibility does not extend to his prudential judgments such as this. We ought to listen carefully to a pope when he does this, but we are not bound to obey him.

The fact that Bergoglio has changed the Catechism of the Catholic Church in this manner, which is clearly at odds with previous infallible teaching, means one or both of two things:

1. He is not really pope. There is good reason to question this. I have not yet made up my mind, and probably won't for some time.
   
   
2. The Catechism of the Catholic Church is not an appropriate document in which to proclaim an infallible teaching. I have made my mind up about this. It is not.

[vladimir998]

“The source is the linked, excerpted, article.”

It wasn’t in your post. And that’s what I was responding to. After I defeat you in a debate - which is always - you start pinging me to threats out of apparent desperation. If you’re not going to post properly, and just ping me to threads, then don’t post at all.

“Try reading one for once before putting your foot in your mouth.”

Apparently my foot is firmly planted in your...

Well, use your imagination.

[ebb tide]

It wasn’t in your post.

Yes, it was.

After I defeat you in a debate - which is always..

I don't debate juveniles, I merely correct them.

[blackpacific]

Just adding to your refreshing comments...

Lifetime imprisonment means the victims must support him for the rest of his life, adding one injustice to another. Oppression of widows and orphans is a sin that cries to heaven for vengeance.

It is righteous to punish evildoers. It reestablishes the just condition, without which peace and virtue are nearly impossible.

Newsflash: The capital offenders know ahead of time what human acts are not acceptable to Christian Civilization, they both lose their human dignity and draw just punishment upon themselves by crossing that red line.

[ebb tide]

Why don't you check the author of the article I posted and then click on two links provided, one at the top, which is highlighted with "The Catholic Thing" and one at the bottom which says, "(Excerpt) Read more at thecatholicthing.org ...

Maybe then you'll take that foot out your mouth.

[Mrs. Don-o]

Thank you for this very thoughtful post.

In case you don't already have it, I'm providing a link to retired Corpus Christi TX Archbishop Rene Gracida's blog, Abyssus Abyssum Invocat

In it he maked the case that the 2013 conclave which elected Pope Francis was invalid. He is asking the 2013 cardinals (not including the ones appointed by Francis) to reconvene and elect a valid pope.

Strange times we're living in.

[Mrs. Don-o]

Typo: “Makes”, not “maked.”

[Songcraft]

Mrs. Don-o, I already posted this link in another thread relating to this issue, but I want to share it with you here too (if you haven't already seen it there or on EWTN).   The link is to the youtube version of the EWTN show "World Over" with Raymond Arroyo aired last night (08-02-18).   In it, Arroyo discusses this death penalty change issue with Father Gerald Murray (canon lawyer, and priest of the Archdiocese of New York), and Robert Royal (editor-in-chief of "The Catholic Thing").   They are very troubled by this decision by the Pope, and give some of their reasons why.   Hope you find their discussion interesting.

Here's that link:

       "World Over - 2018-08-02 – Papal Posse on the McCarrick Scandal, Death Penalty with Raymond Arroyo"

[Mrs. Don-o]

Thank you ver much for this link. I have a lot of respect for Arroyo and his posse, and will check out their discussion with interest.